New speakers $3000

[Jonazkur]

I actually bought the speakers based on professional measurements from former ASR member stoneeh. You can find Part 1 and Part 2 of his review on youtube if you're interested. Anechoic distortion measurements (HD and IMD) are included that show the actual speaker distortion without room influence (unlike ASR HD measurements tha are done in-room). The ASR review did not bring any new information but some comments that I can't confirm. Most prominent point of criticism is distortion in lower bass. You can see here that the Orbits compare very well to other cardioid speakers.

Then there is the step in predicted room response that we already discussed. It's a result of the passive cardioid implementation that ends with the mid/woofer crossover. The trend lines that Amirm added make it stand out more than it should. Just compare the trend lines at spinorama even without EQ. It makes no sense to apply different standard EQ, like you proposed above, because anechoic response would not be flat on axis. As there are enough EQ filters included, the actual frequency response in user's homes can be compensated well, even without external DSP. Still more flexible room EQ makes sense as with any other speaker. There is no disadvantage for the Orbits.

Another point citicised in the ASR review were directivity variations that have also been discused above. Directivity champions like Genelec 8341/8351B comprise a highly optimized mid/treble coax in an equally optimized baffle shape including a waveguide allowing perfectly smooth directivity. Non coax speakers can't match vertical directivity of these speakers. The Orbit coax and waveguide within the baffle are less refined resulting in aforementioned directivity variations. Still these variations aren't too bad either and below 1khz dispersion control of the Orbits beats the Genelecs due to the passive cardioid feature. Overall, that's no clear win for the Genelecs.

Actually, I find it puzzling how hard it can be to understand the exceptional value these speakers represent. The Orbit's BOM cost is higher than Genelec 8341 and sales price is only 30%, while bass output is closer to 8351B. For the complete package there is simply nothing that comes close even far above their price range. One close competitor would be Kii 7 at more than 4 times the price. Features like 3-way, coax, cardioid, 30Hz bass, aluminium enclosure all bring substantial advantages for the user. Speakers up to 3 times of the Orbit price can't clearly distance themselves from the Orbits. If you disagree, just propose respective speakers.

Depends how you listen them. Nearfield without reverberated sound they are ok probably. But those polars show that if you listen at mid/farfield they can be bright and harsh bcouse uneven dispersion. Imo these speakers are good for nearfield and ok for farfield but not good.

 

[illusonic]

Depends how you listen them. Nearfield without reverberated sound they are ok probably. But those polars show that if you listen at mid/farfield they can be bright and harsh bcouse uneven dispersion. Imo these speakers are good for nearfield and ok for farfield but not good.

Don't think I would tell people how speakers sound that they actually own, when I can merely look at measurements. I would rather ask them. So while you did not ask, I can still ensure you that they don't sound specifically bright at 2.5m distance. And remind you these have user EQ included. So even if I would not have EQ options in 3 upstream devices, I could easily adjust the sound to my linking right on the speaker. As I am sensitive to treble levels, I actually reduced it by 2dB with the included treble shelving filters. I'm sure I can do even better with upstream DSP. But I did not bother so far.

I know you built speakers with smoothly rising directivity based on an excellent waveguide you aquired. While not perfect, the Orbits approach constant directivity over a wide frequency range. Theoretically, this may lead to brighter sound because less midrange level is radiated into the room compared to rising directivity speakers. Practically, I did not hear such effect.

 

[easyrider]

There’s not much to see really, couple of monitors on a desk, subs underneath but here’s one pic - no desire to change as they sound good to me so these will see me out

Clean

 

[Jonazkur]

Don't think I would tell people how speakers sound that they actually own, when I can merely look at measurements. I would rather ask them. So while you did not ask, I can still ensure you that they don't sound specifically bright at 2.5m distance. And remind you these have user EQ included. So even if I would not have EQ options in 3 upstream devices, I could easily adjust the sound to my linking right on the speaker. As I am sensitive to treble levels, I actually reduced it by 2dB with the included treble shelving filters. I'm sure I can do even better with upstream DSP. But I did not bother so far.

I know you built speakers with smoothly rising directivity based on an excellent waveguide you aquired. While not perfect, the Orbits approach constant directivity over a wide frequency range. Theoretically, this may lead to brighter sound because less midrange level is radiated into the room compared to rising directivity speakers. Practically, I did not hear such effect.

Fair. I dont see constant directivity in palmers measurements. Constant polars looks like this.

 

[illusonic]

Good look extending that directivity below 1kHz. And then show me the vertical plot.

 

[Jonazkur]

Good look extending that directivity below 1kHz. And then show me the vertical plot.

I would not trade super low distortion for cardiod with much more distortion, i rather take much bigger woofer and extend directivity that way. Yes coaxials have good vertical dispersion but thats important mainly in nearfield.

 

[thewas]

I would not trade super low distortion for cardiod with much more distortion, i rather take much bigger woofer and extend directivity that way.

Which you cannot find though neither the price not the size range of the Orbit.

Yes coaxials have good vertical dispersion but thats important mainly in nearfield.

I would add more important, smooth vertical can be also important in larger listening distances though the floor and ceiling reflections.

 

[Jonazkur]

Which you cannot find though neither the price not the size range of the Orbit.


I would add more important, smooth vertical can be also important in larger listening distances though the floor and ceiling reflections.

I have not heard any benefits from genelec or kef coaxials when listening and comparing in farfield vs traditional 2 or 3 ways. Thats just my opinion.

 

[Jonazkur]

Good look extending that directivity below 1kHz. And then show me the vertical plot.

Also IMO its much more important to have good and smooth directivity +1khz area you hear those much more clearly than lower frequensies.

 

[thewas]

I have not heard any benefits from genelec or kef coaxials when listening and comparing in farfield vs traditional 2 or 3 ways. Thats just my opinion.

Also IMO its much more important to have good and smooth directivity +1khz area you hear those much more clearly than lower frequensies.

Sure, we all have our personal opinions and experiences, mine differ there.

 

[easyrider]

Think I’m going KH310 and 750 sub

Any news on the mk2 version?

Will Neumann even release one?

 

[illusonic]

@Jonazkur I understand that you look at this from a DIY point of view. That's actually something we share. It is possible to build speakers that sound better than the Orbits, at least in some aspects, but surely not something similar. If it shall be active 3-way with DSP/DAC/3xAmp, it will be hard but not impossible to match the price (not calculating work). Matching the size, while keeping the same low-frequency extension, will be next to impossible (MDF vs. aluminium wall thickness). And where to get a coax in the same quality and what's the price? How much experimentation is required to get the cardioid right? So if the features of the Orbits matter, it's much easier to just buy them instead of putting enormous effort and likely also money into DIY.

I bought the Orbits out of curiosity mainly because I wanted to test the cardioid feature. But also the complete package and the bargain price appealed to me. And now I want cardioid for my next DIY speakers. The sound image has much better focus especially when listening at higher distance (3.5m+). But image width still extends past the speaker positions when speakers are pointing straight into the room (toe-out). I also found that at the current height of about 1.25m for the tweeter, I always listen off-axis when either lying on the sofa or standing in the room and still get similar tonality. Freedom of movement is exceptional. So I would love to have a coax in my next DIY speakers, but I don't see any option available that matches the Orbit's coax.

Regarding your preference for smooth directivity, my view is that the general/broad directivity has higher influence than the small details. In-room I will anyways apply additional EQ. So if there is a small frequency range that bothers me, it's easy to compensate for it. For distortion, the Orbits are at about 1% THD in the cardioid range at 96dB SPL (anechoic measurement by Stoneeh). For lower bass distortion is related to enclosure size, not the cardioid losses. While that's not great, it's still better than D&D 8C, Kii 3 and Kii 7. Not too bad I would say. Most important thing is that the Orbits are 3-way which keeps bass notes from modulating the midrange.

Unless one enjoys the build process, these days the efforts for DIY only make sense, when building really high-performance speakers, that would cost >5k or better >10k. In that price range it's still possible to save some money. And thanks to excellent drivers and waveguides available today, stunning results are possible. Your speakers included. Personally, I would like to have something similar to the Ascilab C8C but with a coax and a mix of passive cardioid for the midrange and active cardioid for the bass. Maybe also a bass extension module, but I don't really need it as even the Orbits provide enough bass for me. Looking at the Orbit's passive cardioid implementation and the C8C's active implementation, I see good chances to succeed with the cardioid design. And the coax would allow for a real D'appolito arrangement with sufficiently low crossover to the mid-woofers. But I don't see a coax available to DIY that I would like to make the center-piece of such a speaker.

 

[illusonic]

Think I’m going KH310 and 750 sub

Any news on the mk2 version?

Will Neumann even release one?

I heard somewhere that the update will only be in electronics. If I'm not mistaken KH 750 can handle the DSP as well. So maybe not worth waiting for. Unless you speculate on getting used mk1 speakers. And I don't think the Neumann setup is worth the money compared to the Orbits. But that's just my view.

 

[easyrider]

Went with the KH310

 

[Somafunk]

Very nice, and pretty much the #1 3way monitor at that price

 

[LugsyTL47]

There’s not much to see really, couple of monitors on a desk, subs underneath but here’s one pic - no desire to change as they sound good to me so these will see me out

I’ve had my LYD 7 for a few months and finally found a used 18s sub, waiting for arrival. All in for LYD 7 +18s, $2150 CAD / $1500 USD

 

[ahmedmo1]

@Jonazkur I understand that you look at this from a DIY point of view. That's actually something we share. It is possible to build speakers that sound better than the Orbits, at least in some aspects, but surely not something similar. If it shall be active 3-way with DSP/DAC/3xAmp, it will be hard but not impossible to match the price (not calculating work). Matching the size, while keeping the same low-frequency extension, will be next to impossible (MDF vs. aluminium wall thickness). And where to get a coax in the same quality and what's the price? How much experimentation is required to get the cardioid right? So if the features of the Orbits matter, it's much easier to just buy them instead of putting enormous effort and likely also money into DIY.

I bought the Orbits out of curiosity mainly because I wanted to test the cardioid feature. But also the complete package and the bargain price appealed to me. And now I want cardioid for my next DIY speakers. The sound image has much better focus especially when listening at higher distance (3.5m+). But image width still extends past the speaker positions when speakers are pointing straight into the room (toe-out). I also found that at the current height of about 1.25m for the tweeter, I always listen off-axis when either lying on the sofa or standing in the room and still get similar tonality. Freedom of movement is exceptional. So I would love to have a coax in my next DIY speakers, but I don't see any option available that matches the Orbit's coax.

Regarding your preference for smooth directivity, my view is that the general/broad directivity has higher influence than the small details. In-room I will anyways apply additional EQ. So if there is a small frequency range that bothers me, it's easy to compensate for it. For distortion, the Orbits are at about 1% THD in the cardioid range at 96dB SPL (anechoic measurement by Stoneeh). For lower bass distortion is related to enclosure size, not the cardioid losses. While that's not great, it's still better than D&D 8C, Kii 3 and Kii 7. Not too bad I would say. Most important thing is that the Orbits are 3-way which keeps bass notes from modulating the midrange.

Unless one enjoys the build process, these days the efforts for DIY only make sense, when building really high-performance speakers, that would cost >5k or better >10k. In that price range it's still possible to save some money. And thanks to excellent drivers and waveguides available today, stunning results are possible. Your speakers included. Personally, I would like to have something similar to the Ascilab C8C but with a coax and a mix of passive cardioid for the midrange and active cardioid for the bass. Maybe also a bass extension module, but I don't really need it as even the Orbits provide enough bass for me. Looking at the Orbit's passive cardioid implementation and the C8C's active implementation, I see good chances to succeed with the cardioid design. And the coax would allow for a real D'appolito arrangement with sufficiently low crossover to the mid-woofers. But I don't see a coax available to DIY that I would like to make the center-piece of such a speaker.

I have the Orbit 11s as well and can compare them to Hedd Type 20 Mk 2, Ascilab F6B, Eve SC208, and few others. Had the Orbit 11s existed, I would not have bought the HEDDs.

 

[Bwaslo]

One thing I found about the Orbits is that DSP helped a lot in the bass. Simply running the automatic room correction below 120Hz made a tremendous difference (the auto room eq of a Wiim Ultra worked a treat). I still have subs but haven't even bothered getting around to integrating them with the Orbits. The low bass is quite a good at least at levels I ever play at (and I think harmonic distortion numbers at below 100Hz are way too much agonized over, while keeping low midrange clear of IMD in a woofer is a much bigger concern).

At least here, room eq was all I needed. I think maybe eq needed has to do with very low frequencies being emmited from the position of a very small 3-way. You don't often run into subwoofers playing from 2 1/2 ft above the floor!