New Sigberg Audio development thread: The Sentinel - A music oriented reference subwoofer developed for the Manta system.

[audiofooled]

The goal is to get a multiband limiter here so this probably won't look like this in the final production version at least not when you turn it way up, but currently not really going much below -6dB even at 10hz in-room in my dedicated listening space.

View attachment 529455

10D for scale.
View attachment 529456

That should sound like some effortless bass right there.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

That should sound like some effortless bass right there.

It really does. And it changes the entire soundstage and overall sound quite significantly, but I'm not sure how much of that I dare share here without being asked for blind test listening comparisons.

But bass extension and headroom significantly impacts the overall sense of space and scale even at moderate volume - so it's not just about added SPL.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

At the moment I'm slightly regretting starting this as a subwoofer development thread, because what this will likely be launched as is a new flagship version of the Manta (possibly called the MANTA SENTINEL), but oh well.

The sub will be available for stand-alone purchase as well, but that will not be the main focus.

Early tinkering with a separate flagship product page below. It will at least initially be a single non-configurable system with the Mantas + dual Sentinel subwoofers, everything in black. Also contemplating blacking out the Mantas, so that the normally walnut veneered base will rather be veneered in the nearly black veneer from the "Fade to black" color of the Saranna.

Rough mock-up of blacked out Manta:

 

[audiofooled]

It really does. And it changes the entire soundstage and overall sound quite significantly, but I'm not sure how much of that I dare share here without being asked for blind test listening comparisons.

But bass extension and headroom significantly impacts the overall sense of space and scale even at moderate volume - so it's not just about added SPL.

IMO/IME there's something about frequencies bellow the first mode in room and the source being able to excite them with enough displacement... Kind of like comparing the headphones that are leaky and the ones that are not.

But it's the how does this translate into audible frequencies that's a bit shady territory, in my understanding.

Yeah, let's not speculate further against the notion that for music you don't need much output down low and let your customers have a listen for themselves.

 

[Paul7777x]

At the moment I'm slightly regretting starting this as a subwoofer development thread, because what this will likely be launched as is a new flagship version of the Manta (possibly called the MANTA SENTINEL), but oh well.

The sub will be available for stand-alone purchase as well, but that will not be the main focus.

Early tinkering with a separate flagship product page below. It will at least initially be a single non-configurable system with the Mantas + dual Sentinel subwoofers, everything in black. Also contemplating blacking out the Mantas, so that the normally walnut veneered base will rather be veneered in the nearly black veneer from the "Fade to black" color of the Saranna.


View attachment 530087


Rough mock-up of blacked out Manta:
View attachment 530088

The blacked out instead of Walnut is vastly superior imo. Much better.

 

[Mnyb]

At the moment I'm slightly regretting starting this as a subwoofer development thread, because what this will likely be launched as is a new flagship version of the Manta (possibly called the MANTA SENTINEL), but oh well.

The sub will be available for stand-alone purchase as well, but that will not be the main focus.

Early tinkering with a separate flagship product page below. It will at least initially be a single non-configurable system with the Mantas + dual Sentinel subwoofers, everything in black. Also contemplating blacking out the Mantas, so that the normally walnut veneered base will rather be veneered in the nearly black veneer from the "Fade to black" color of the Saranna.


View attachment 530087


Rough mock-up of blacked out Manta:
View attachment 530088

For such a premium product i think you should offer choices on the finish , the wood trim is the thing that makes the manta look really nice . if its a statement , customers will not be price sensitive ? "oligarch gold leaf" 50% extra or make custom trims 10% extra ?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

For such a premium product i think you should offer choices on the finish , the wood trim is the thing that makes the manta look really nice . if its a statement , customers will not be price sensitive ? "oligarch gold leaf" 50% extra or make custom trims 10% extra ?

The reasoning is partly a logistical thing (all variants and options add complexity), and partly a "barrier to purchase thing".

The Manta was originally only available in the black/walnut option, then white came later as market demand was verified. And the current Manta version with Inkognito/10D subwoofer options will still be there. So if someone contacts us (which almost all customers do before placing an order of these systems), it will of course be possible to mix the Sentinels with other variants of the Manta. But the Sentinel sub itself will likely only be available in black at least initially.

I'd also like to present a very clean MANTA|SENTINEL product presentation, rather than mess up the current Manta page with further options and alternatives making it almost impossible to decide what to purchase. With this I'd also like to set this new system apart as the flagship option. Currently there's not a super clear step up between the Saranna and the Manta system as they are not priced that differently. So it's about creating a more natural hiearchy of choices as well. And to give the Manta the subwoofers they deserve.


It's generally harder to make clean websites and product presentations for us since we are both a manufacturer and also do direct sales. A pure manufacturer website wouldn't need to do the job of a dealer/distributor (fronting reviews and customer feedback), and also not need to worry about mechanics for being able to purchase directly on the website, etc.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s great to present it as a complete 4 way system .

You don’t buy only the mantas .

I never understood if your system provides the complete crossover solution, built into the mantas or the sub ?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

It’s great to present it as a complete 4 way system .

You don’t buy only the mantas .

Yep. And we do that already for the Mantas today as well, but you have configuration options for both color and type of subs. So the idea is a separate product page for this version where both color and subs are already defined and not configurable. Color/finish may be an option later (or from the start if I change my mind before the launch ).

I never understood if your system provides the complete crossover solution, built into the mantas or the sub ?

The roll-off of the Mantas are designed for subwoofers, so they're around -3dB at 90hz. And all our subs have a specific "I am using the subwoofers in a Sigberg speaker system" crossover preset choice that makes them integrate perfectly with the Mantas (or the SBS). This preset is of course already selected when you buy the subs in connection with a system purchase.

So it works as a 4-way system out of the box.

 

[Mnyb]

Yep. And we do that already for the Mantas today as well, but you have configuration options for both color and type of subs. So the idea is a separate product page for this version where both color and subs are already defined and not configurable. Color/finish may be an option later (or from the start if I change my mind before the launch ).



The roll-off of the Mantas are designed for subwoofers, so they're around -3dB at 90hz. And all our subs have a specific "I am using the subwoofers in a Sigberg speaker system" crossover preset choice that makes them integrate perfectly with the Mantas (or the SBS). This preset is of course already selected when you buy the subs in connection with a system purchase.

So it works as a 4-way system out of the box.

But how do you cable it up if i for example have a spdiff source ?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

But how do you cable it up if i for example have a spdiff source ?

The subs don't have digital inputs, but it's pretty rare to not have analog outputs.

So for the Saranna you can do all digital, for the Manta I'd typically recommend doing XLR to the Mantas and onwards to the sub.

You could do digital to the Mantas and analog to the subs of course if you have a system can output both at the same time. I have customers with Trinnov who do AES to the Mantas and XLR to the subs directly from the Trinnov. You could theoretically do the same if you have a streamer that can output both digital and analog at the same time, not sure if there are so many of those.

Either way, the crossover integration will work the same independently of how you route the signal. You just have to adjust the gain on the subs as needed.

 

[Reddoc]

called the MANTA SENTINEL

Woof. That will be awesome

changes the entire soundstage and overall sound quite significantly

It sure does- I don't know why mids and treble change when you add good bass, but it certainly seems to.
Effortlessness is a critical part of quality audio. I don't know what it means for measurements, it's certainly a feeling I enjoy.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

A slightly closer look at the driver. +/-21mm linear xmax, +/-35mm total. The plan is to actively limit it to stay well within it's linear range.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I'm sure we will have to limit this more, but currently still rising at 10hz, and also very low group delay even at 10hz.

Even at 10hz the group delay is now only around 20ms.

With 24db/oct high pass implemented at 10hz we get more, but still below 30ms until 20hz. This is well below 1 cycle (50ms at 20hz).

 

[Audionaut]

What is your target range?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

What is your target range?

For the frequency response? The general idea for all our systems is to be full range in-room, so have response at least to 20hz. Some rooms are more troublesome than others, but mostly this will be the case. -6dB around 18hz is what I mostly see, but some rooms roll off a bit earlier. Depends on placement as well of course.

The Sentinel is around +/-3dB to 24hz anechoically now, which would normally give you full level until below 20hz in-room. It seems to excite more room gain than the 10Ds, not sure exactly why that happens, I have to try it in more rooms to better study what is happening. It has way larger drivers, more excursion and if all goes according to plan I will also have a multiband limiter.

This means I can actively limit the lowest frequencies when you reach the limit of the sub. If that pans out as planned, I may be able to tune this deeper than the 10D and Inkognito. I've already got an existing customer who says he's going to purchase two or four if they will go to 10hz in his room. Just sent him the graph above.

 

[Audionaut]

It seems to excite more room gain than the 10Ds, not sure exactly why that happens, I have to try it in more rooms to better study what is happening.

You already provided the answer yourself:

It has way larger drivers, more excursion

For your customers, you could recommend offering various settings tailored to their preferences. For example, for the deepest possible bass response and for increased sound pressure without any regrets.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

For your customers, you could recommend offering various settings tailored to their preferences. For example, for the deepest possible bass response and for increased sound pressure without any regrets.

Yes, hopefully the multiband limiter will offer exactly this out of the box. Very deep bass as long as we stay within linear excursion, and then automatic limiting of the deepest frequencies when you turn them way (way, way) up.

I've done this manually in the past for a few customers with like 6-8 Inkognitos in Trinnov setups. They have a less aggressive high pass since they have enough capacity to allow the subs play deeper.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Okay, time to share some early renderings of the new baby. Alongside the Manta to get an impression of the scale. Manta is a pretty big monitor, so feels a bit weird that it suddenly looks small. Testing carbon fiber base on the Mantas in these renderings, would be a nice cohesive touch given the fact that the Sentinel drivers are carbon fiber. Not sure if this will be a reality yet.

And below a couple of illustrations of the subs stacked, for those who think 4x15" per side is reasonable.. I like how the shaped sides (and also the grills when attached) form a satisfying pattern when stacked.

 

[Paul7777x]

I must say, these look serious.

And the removal of the timber bit makes them look much more upmarket too.

Am I close perhaps in thinking around £40,000 - £45,000 for the full set up (two subs)?