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New Sigberg Audio development thread: The Sentinel - A music oriented reference subwoofer developed for the Manta system.

Out of curiosity - what makes one sub "musical" and one "cinematic?" If they reproduce sound accurately at similar SPLs, what possible difference is there? I happen to have one of your subs, and it sounds fine on both, as did the previous sub - which just wasn't as good.
 
Out of curiosity - what makes one sub "musical" and one "cinematic?" If they reproduce sound accurately at similar SPLs, what possible difference is there? I happen to have one of your subs, and it sounds fine on both, as did the previous sub - which just wasn't as good.

I guess that's a fair and somewhat complicated question. As @Audionaut helpfully linked to above, I've answered briefly earlier, but let's elaborate a bit.

I understand that the difference between "musical" as opposed to something suitable for home theater (not sure what to call that) can be a bit unclear. A subwoofer obviously doesn’t know whether it is playing a kick drum or an explosion. Its job is simply to reproduce low frequencies accurately. If the main goal is high SPL at very low frequencies, it's natural to look at large, high excursion drivers, and also large, ported enclosures. The result will be something the size of a small refrigerator, aka not well suited for a small, European living room.

Another approach (closer to what I do) is a smaller, sealed enclosure, potentially still with a relatively large driver, or two drivers, but more moderate excursion. The result will typically be more linear response, but less capacity in the lowest frequencies (below say 30-35hz where high SPL start to require very high excursion. With the 10D (and maybe the Sentinel?) I also use a dual opposed configuration, which means vibration and noise from the cabinet is essentially eliminated, further reducing mechanical noise and reducing the risk of being able to locate the subwoofer even with high crossovers.

So any loudspeaker or subwoofer is a set of compromises. What the designer/manufacturer chooses to focus on will affect what it is more or less suitable for. Where the term “musical” usually comes from I suspect is when distortion tends to remain low in the upper bass (roughly 40–100 Hz), and even beyond that if you cross high. Typical "home theater", very high excursion subwoofer drivers aren't well suited above 100-150hz. The ones we currently use are essentially linear to 1000hz.

The new driver we are working on will have a similar focus on being well behaved well beyond the intended frequency band. It will be different in several ways to a typical home theater subwoofer driver, and also different than the PA-type subwoofer drivers that have been mentioned earlier in the thread. The reason I'm looking into custom is because I simply have not been able to find an OEM driver that is close enough to what I am looking for.

Subwoofers designed primarily for maximum deep-bass output may prioritise absolute displacement and amplifier power so they can produce very high SPL at the lowest frequencies. They are not necessarily super linear even at moderate excursion (the stated xmax is often well into distortion land), but that's not necessarily a practical problem, especially for movies. So the differences people hear usually come from how the system is designed: driver compromises, maximum displacement, linearity, cabinet size, driver configuration, DSP strategy, and so on.

To get slightly more technical;
A lot of the character of a subwoofer comes from how linear the motor and suspension remain as the cone moves. If those stay symmetrical and change slowly with excursion, we get less distortion and better sound quality. Further, voice coil inductance and how it changes with excursion can affect the upper bass region. Designs that keep inductance low and stable is preferred. System Q, and DSP strategy also affect behaviour. A sealed system with moderate Q and DSP extension tends to have a very predictable roll-off, good transient behaviour and low group delay.

With regards to the 10D, choices has been made to ensure it works very well with music, and it has a lot of displacement for its size, so one of the key benefits is how much power it has for its size. Interestingly, a review of the 10D on a home theater oriented site was actually released just yesterday. It's obvious through his review that a single 10D was not quite enough to satisfy him with regards to deep bass capacity, but as he points out; "it (the 10D) packs the equivalent of a 15 inch driver in a cabinet that looks like it should only hold one 10 inch."
 
This does look impressive, and thank you for your effort. I'll ask the big question : any idea on pricing, and will it be competitive with SVS and REL?

I'll venture a rough answer here to see if it's close to what you are asking for:

The Sentinel will be significantly more expensive than the most expensive SVS subwoofer, but probably not more expensive than the most expensive REL. :p
 
Not a ton of updates, but cabinet design work is ongoing (sketches, CAD) and looks promising. The current design is working from the assumption that one oft he drivers / driver configurations will be chosen, so I won't show that until I've actually tested that driver.

Driver samples are due to arrive within a couple of weeks. Next step after that is to build prototypes to do real life tests (not just simulations). :)
 
Received measured T/S data on the sample drivers today, looks promising. So they will be shipped this week.

Materials for prototype cabinet is also ready to go. Prototype will be ~90l before the displacement loss from drivers/amp/bracing, production will probably be slightly bigger, maybe 100l. But want to test with a smaller volume.
 
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New sample drivers on the way. As I'm waiting for drivers and contemplating this project, it feels more like it's about creating an even more extreme version of the Manta system, and less about the subwoofer itself. Almost as if this should be a Manta development thread instead.

While the 10D subwoofers are impressive, they couldn't quite deliver the output needed to match the Mantas, and some found it a bit strange to have 10" drivers in the bass (even though there were two of them) and a 12" in the midbass.

I think this moves the Manta system from really impressive into truly spectacular territory. It will also make for a cleaner divide between the Manta and the Saranna. They are currently not too differently priced, and feels like a choice of form factor more than anything else. If this goes as planned, this will shift the Manta into a different league alltogether.

Really excited to see how the first prototypes using these new drivers will turn out! :)
 
I think this moves the Manta system from really impressive into truly spectacular territory
What exactly are you expecting besides a higher maximum level?
 
What exactly are you expecting besides a higher maximum level?

That feels a bit like a trick question. :) Beyond that, I'm not quite ready to share the configuration of the subwoofer yet - I want to wait until I've tested and verified the drivers. Which makes me partially unable to answer this. But more headroom is certainly one aspect, yes.

The Manta speakers sound effortless in a way I haven't heard many systems do. There's just so much more headroom available basically no matter how loud you play. This is apparent also at moderate levels. I'd like to replicate that same sensation of effortlessness even in the bottom octaves.
 
That feels a bit like a trick question. :)
That might be true, but that’s not what I meant.
The Mantas aren’t paired with poor subwoofers; you’ve already matched them very well with the 10Ds. As you once wrote somewhere, scaling is achieved by adding even more subwoofers. The diaphragm area and maximum sound pressure level can therefore be achieved relatively easily by adding several 10D subs.
It’s not exactly cheap, but it’s doable.
So for me, the logical follow-up question is: Why another sub? What exactly is it supposed to do that a cascaded 10D system can’t?
So it’s really more a question of what you’re trying to achieve with this sub.
 
That might be true, but that’s not what I meant.
The Mantas aren’t paired with poor subwoofers; you’ve already matched them very well with the 10Ds. As you once wrote somewhere, scaling is achieved by adding even more subwoofers. The diaphragm area and maximum sound pressure level can therefore be achieved relatively easily by adding several 10D subs.
It’s not exactly cheap, but it’s doable.
So for me, the logical follow-up question is: Why another sub? What exactly is it supposed to do that a cascaded 10D system can’t?
So it’s really more a question of what you’re trying to achieve with this sub.

I think many would prefer to have two rather than four or even more subs, so it's a practical aspect. That you can match each Manta with a single sub that can deliver the same output. So as mentioned in #45, having a version / configuration of the Manta system that is at another level, and that is a bit cleaner than having four 10Ds.

We are also moving a bit more deliberately into the US market, where, apparently, everything is bigger - so one theory is that a larger option might work well there too.

Finally, the Manta was designed to be unreasonably powerful and as a statement product. The 10D was developed a couple of years prior, and originally developed for the SBS. While it certainly packs a punch, it never quite matched the Manta with regards to sheer terrifying brutalness, neither with regards to capacity or aesthetics.
 
We are also moving a bit more deliberately into the US market, where, apparently, everything is bigger - so one theory is that a larger option might work well there too
I'm curious to see which drivers you've chosen.
I'm currently using this 18-inch driver in a 160-liter bass-reflex enclosure as a subwoofer. It's not quite what you're looking for, but I really like it.

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I'm curious to see which drivers you've chosen.
I'm currently using this 18-inch driver in a 160-liter bass-reflex enclosure as a subwoofer. It's not quite what you're looking for, but I really like it.

View attachment 525523

That looks nice. The enclosure of this sub will not be ported. At least that's not the plan at the moment. :)
 
OK, sample driver arrived. Hope to build a prototype this weekend.

Here it is next to one of the 10" drivers we use in the 10D subwoofer, which are pretty hefty drivers. :)

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Interesting
Pure Carbon or a Composite?
 
Interesting
Pure Carbon or a Composite?

Dual layer is more precise. Carbon fiber and paper. Lightweight combined with excellent rigidity.
 
Initial nearfield measurements of a dual 15" prototype. Looks squeaky clean up to 500hz, which is well beyond the intended passband, so this driver looks promising. :)

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-6dB a little under 24hz on an outdoors groundplane measurement (2 meter distance). Not sure if it will be tuned this deep. This is easily flat to below 20hz in-room.

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Some VERY preliminary THD data, but looks promising towards my hope to match the Mantas down to at least 40hz. It also implies a sub that will be very clean with music content at any reasonable level.

96dB@40hz/1m: ~1%THD
102dB@40hz/1m: ~2%THD
110dB@40hz/1m: ~5% THD (ran out of amplifier power around this level when doing sine sweeps, got to ~114dB with sine bursts)

This is with long sine sweeps outdoors, which is pretty brutal.

At 20-30hz THD will rise, which is as expected with a compact sealed configuration. Luckily we will be helped by room gain down low, so in practice in-room, you will get low THD there as well.
 
The goal is to get a multiband limiter here so this probably won't look like this in the final production version at least not when you turn it way up, but currently not really going much below -6dB even at 10hz in-room in my dedicated listening space. :)

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10D for scale. :D
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