• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

New "Science": FLAC vs. WAV

Of course there are. And the one that is right is the one without the objectionable sibilance - FR manipulation is a way of reducing the impact, but the underlying cause of the unpleasantness is distortion - I've never had a sibilance issue on any of my systems once decently tuned up, with any recording. An interesting incident that happened years ago was an audiophile who was unfamiliar with my setup put on a recording of his, said, "Oooh, sibilance ..." but the system was well short of optimum at that moment - the artifact disappeared as full stability was reached.
Well that is simply ridiculous. There are recordings that are sibilant. To reproduce them otherwise is an indication you have an overly inaccurate system.

You seemed to have missed the point. Without a reference you don't know if your system is sibilant or the recording.
 
What Frank could do is take his ' enhanced ' system to audio shows and show it off! Behind a curtain if he is concerned some might prejudge his offering. He is sure to take over the world! All he needs to do is get these inexpensive designs made in China but with his enhancements and sell them under his own brand.." ASA by Frank"

If it's half as good as he claims he will make millions and the world will be a better place, albeit in a small way:)
Guess what? I've had that idea for years !!! ... but, a little thing has always got in the way - it's bloody hard to get a system to this point, and much harder to get it to work this well from switch on - and, the worst part is that it's very difficult to completely isolate the rig from external interference! The latter has been the killer - the performance that one is looking for can be crippled simply from some device in the electrical neighbourhood spraying out nasties; I've been playing with many ideas over the years to get this under control, but I'm still not there yet.

If I built a "show off" unit then it would have to be able to contend with all these issues - Murphy's Law would guarantee I'd have egg on my face, otherwise ...
 
Well that is simply ridiculous. There are recordings that are sibilant. To reproduce them otherwise is an indication you have an overly inaccurate system.

You seemed to have missed the point. Without a reference you don't know if your system is sibilant or the recording.
Of course there are recordings where the the vocal sibilants are more prominent than in others - but the point is that this characteristic should not be emphasised any more then what you would experience in real life, from a live person singing, if you happened to listen to her from a certain angle. IOW, there is natural sibilance, and then there are distortion artifacts from sibilants not being reproduced as well as they should be - the latter is what what we need to get rid of.

What I worry about is being able to listen without constantly being jogged into thinking, "Here's one of those pesky ol' sibilants again!" - IME, this is achievable.
 
Of course there are recordings where the the vocal sibilants are more prominent than in others - but the point is that this characteristic should not be emphasised any more then what you would experience in real life, from a live person singing, if you happened to listen to her from a certain angle. IOW, there is natural sibilance, and then there are distortion artifacts from sibilants not being reproduced as well as they should be - the latter is what what we need to get rid of.

What I worry about is being able to listen without constantly being jogged into thinking, "Here's one of those pesky ol' sibilants again!" - IME, this is achievable.

You are writing meaningless gibberish here. Sibilant recordings would be more sibilant than natural and you can't get them to be otherwise in a system unless you mess up some other part of your system. Microphones can cause sibilance. That won't sound natural on that recording and sound natural on another recording that didn't have sibilance. You can't get it react that way. You are talking out of your hat on this.
 
You are writing meaningless gibberish here. Sibilant recordings would be more sibilant than natural and you can't get them to be otherwise in a system unless you mess up some other part of your system. Microphones can cause sibilance. That won't sound natural on that recording and sound natural on another recording that didn't have sibilance. You can't get it react that way. You are talking out of your hat on this.
But how do you know that the problem recordings are unnaturally sibilant, except by listening to them over your own system? IOW, you're using some playback mechanism as a reference for estimating sibilance, what guarantees do you have that the negative quality you hear is 100% due to the recording, o% to the playback chain?

I'm using sibilance here as just one subjective "measuring tool", there are plenty of others, but I used disturbing sibilance as one of the really obvious, well known artifacts, for all listeners. Personally, I don't use this myself, and by the time I've got a setup into fairly decent shape unnatural sibilance is well behind me as something to notice in recordings. Again, if I deliberately listen for sibilance being part of one recording, versus being less evident on another one, I would hear that as being the case - but that's not the point, it's whether it's disturbing in nature or not! An analogy might be tape hiss, one recording might have far greater levels of this than another - but on a good system this doesn't get in the way of enjoying both; which, is not the same thing as not being able to detect this fact, if one deliberately tries to hear for a variation in hiss.
 
Guess what? I've had that idea for years !!! ... but, a little thing has always got in the way - it's bloody hard to get a system to this point, and much harder to get it to work this well from switch on - and, the worst part is that it's very difficult to completely isolate the rig from external interference! The latter has been the killer - the performance that one is looking for can be crippled simply from some device in the electrical neighbourhood spraying out nasties; I've been playing with many ideas over the years to get this under control, but I'm still not there yet.

If I built a "show off" unit then it would have to be able to contend with all these issues - Murphy's Law would guarantee I'd have egg on my face, otherwise ...
Yes its got to work in the real world, i take it your techniques for eliminating 'artefacts' are geared towards dealing with hostile environments as well as issues that are locally generated.

Can you explain some of the negative influences you might expect to find? What is this 'spray' and how do you combat it?
 
Yes its got to work in the real world, i take it your techniques for eliminating 'artefacts' are geared towards dealing with hostile environments as well as issues that are locally generated.

Can you explain some of the negative influences you might expect to find? What is this 'spray' and how do you combat it?
Exactly. The negative influences are from appliances in one's own home that present non-linear loads to mains current - some of most benign are incandescent lamps, which would show a nice sinusoidal current draw, but add a dimmer to that circuit which is active to some degree, and all hell breaks loose! Then there are wall warts using switchers, and other linear supplies which use classic rectifier circuits - everything which injects higher harmonics into the current waveforms in the environment's mains lines will then modulate the voltage waveform, because of finite impedance of the circuits, to some degree - as presented to the input of the power supplies of the audio components. If the power supplies of these components were "perfect" then there should be no impact - but I have always found there to be some.

Three approaches: organise appliances hooked into the mains to minimise this; add effective filtering on the lines feeding the audio components; and improve the behaviour of components' power supplies, to make them robust against noise. The latter two methods I have used since I started, but the first can't be managed outside one's own home; hence the problem with creating a marketable product.
 
Frank

I will hand it to you: You are good. You write things that are so generic, so devoid of any specific yet those manage to elicit debate from people who should know better... Hat off my man!
 
Exactly. The negative influences are from appliances in one's own home that present non-linear loads to mains current - some of most benign are incandescent lamps, which would show a nice sinusoidal current draw, but add a dimmer to that circuit which is active to some degree, and all hell breaks loose! Then there are wall warts using switchers, and other linear supplies which use classic rectifier circuits - everything which injects higher harmonics into the current waveforms in the environment's mains lines will then modulate the voltage waveform, because of finite impedance of the circuits, to some degree - as presented to the input of the power supplies of the audio components. If the power supplies of these components were "perfect" then there should be no impact - but I have always found there to be some.

Three approaches: organise appliances hooked into the mains to minimise this; add effective filtering on the lines feeding the audio components; and improve the behaviour of components' power supplies, to make them robust against noise. The latter two methods I have used since I started, but the first can't be managed outside one's own home; hence the problem with creating a marketable product.
My old English teacher would accuse you of waffling frank. There is not substance to your reply. Just headlines no content.

Leaving that to one side, could you not power your hifi show ready product with a battery solution of some kind?
 
My old English teacher would accuse you of waffling frank. There is not substance to your reply. Just headlines no content.

Leaving that to one side, could you not power your hifi show ready product with a battery solution of some kind?
Because the answer is, as always, that it's all about the process - not a specific set of steps. Every system I've improved I've used a different set of procedures, a 'correct' answer would involve completely different things tried in each system - because I'm always experimenting. And some of things I used for a particular system most likely were largely useless, but I did them just in case, and didn't remove them because it was too much bother. Which are the absolutely best techniques that I use? I really have no idea, and there is every chance what was useful for my equipment in one situation may not do much at all for your setup. Something that happened many years ago - a prominent member at WBF was intrigued enough to go along with a procedure that I used for "troubleshooting" my systems - when I did this I would get a very strong result; he did the similar with his gear, and got a complete zero - he heard absolutely no difference. Why? Partly, because he was using very expensive gear, it had different "problems" - and the style of the components and the sound he was chasing was too unlike my own situation. There are too many variables ... the most important thing is to be able to hear whether something you've tried has made a difference - then, was that difference an improvement?

To give you some concretes: current NAD based system, still well short from what it should end up being capable of - in the specific area of hostile environmental factors I've only mainly used method one so far: organise mains spurs feeding the components so they relatively free of noise - something that huge numbers of audiophile already do; only used a couple of quite simple, off the shelf surgebusters, and a well known DIY mains filter to tidy things up a bit more; still haven't touched the power supplies. This gives me sound of decent competence at the moment, but it would be hopeless if installed in a normal home setting - a lot more experimenting to make the isolation robust.

Batteries would be good, the completely OTT Living Voice show demos use a monster configuration for this - you see, their sound is good enough that they have major problems with mains quality. Slight problem though ... the battery solution is hideously expensive, so then the idea of the cheap Chinese sales item sorta fades away ...
 
An addendum: the Kii Threes are exactly the sort of thing I was aiming to have a go at quite some number of years ago, but that upstart Bruno beat me to it, ;)! This is the smartest way of producing a competent system, and the signs are that most things have been got right in these units - but reading between the lines of comments by listeners he hasn't got the isolation thing properly under control either ... this is not easy to do, so is quite understandable in this early stage of its life. But, it must be conquered for the potential of these boxes to be fully realised ...
 
This thread has been derailed beyond measure.

Might as well be discussing Flac vs ...
images
 
There are recordings that are sibilant. To reproduce them otherwise is an indication you have an overly inaccurate system.

ex: Sweet Jane, Trinity Sessions, Cowboy Junkies. Margo's leading sss'z ...
 
Best sound:
1. Analog open-reel-tapes.
2. Analog LPs (the good ones, not the bad ones).
3. Some digital mediums, like Crystal discs. ... Haute Resolution Musique Audio Paranormalité
Regular CD-quality digital outperforms analog tape and LP, so I would put that at number 1. Transparency is what I value in a recording medium. I personally can't stand the speed variations and distortions present on LP (and tape to a lesser extent). Fortunately we can preserve all of the "analogness" of tape/LP by transferring to digital!
the artifact disappeared as full stability was reached.
What is "full stability?"
 
Well that is simply ridiculous. There are recordings that are sibilant. To reproduce them otherwise is an indication you have an overly inaccurate system.

You seemed to have missed the point. Without a reference you don't know if your system is sibilant or the recording.

You could have stopped right there. Of course recordings a sibilant. Humans and instruments are sibilant.

Tim
 
Exactly. The negative influences are from appliances in one's own home that present non-linear loads to mains current - some of most benign are incandescent lamps, which would show a nice sinusoidal current draw, but add a dimmer to that circuit which is active to some degree, and all hell breaks loose! Then there are wall warts using switchers, and other linear supplies which use classic rectifier circuits - everything which injects higher harmonics into the current waveforms in the environment's mains lines will then modulate the voltage waveform, because of finite impedance of the circuits, to some degree - as presented to the input of the power supplies of the audio components. If the power supplies of these components were "perfect" then there should be no impact - but I have always found there to be some.

Three approaches: organise appliances hooked into the mains to minimise this; add effective filtering on the lines feeding the audio components; and improve the behaviour of components' power supplies, to make them robust against noise. The latter two methods I have used since I started, but the first can't be managed outside one's own home; hence the problem with creating a marketable product.

Everything you've mentioned here would be addressed by battery power. There's your marketable solution. Take it to Elon Musk, then take the audiophile world by storm.

Tim
 
Frank

I will hand it to you: You are good. You write things that are so generic, so devoid of any specific yet those manage to elicit debate from people who should know better... Hat off my man!

You have identified the technique and the objective in a single sentence. Well done.

Tim
 
Regular CD-quality digital outperforms analog tape and LP, so I would put that at number 1. Transparency is what I value in a recording medium. I personally can't stand the speed variations and distortions present on LP (and tape to a lesser extent). Fortunately we can preserve all of the "analogness" of tape/LP by transferring to digital!

Yeah, even tho I don't want to agree, the evidence suggest CD as #1.

In the field tho, it's never that simple, often depending on which CD/LP you refer. Considering, I can rip an original LP pressing and the resulting CD(R) will often contain far greater (measurable) dynamic contrast than the current commercial available release/remaster; in either HD and/or CD. Each format remains slaved to the quality of its master.

As for the added "analogness" or "warmth" of LP, not a big fan of those defining type terms. On the contrary: I prefer (and setup) turntables to sound leaner, perhaps more "digital" to some. If I wish a night of digital warmth per-say, I'll play my DCC collection.
 
I'm on ebay now ordering replacement copy's for thousands of CD's that I ripped to flac. Now that I KNOW, how will I ever be satisfied listening to those files again. :(

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

If you haven't populated 'em with Evil metadata yet, they should retain their musical soul.

Otherwise, you may require a priest ...
exorcist.jpg
 
Amir,
You are the one always saying the subjectivists never want to test their findings with blind testing. Now that they have a "study" to prove what they are saying, you want to dismiss it. How open-minded of you! Maybe you never heard of "bit rot." :p


Well, even though the difference between FLAC and WAV is obvious, like Redbook vs hi rez (i.e., obvious to those with the right ears, the right setup, the right recordings), blind tests are HARD. Really hard. In fact no one has done one right yet, in all these years, as Dr. Reiss's meta-analysis shows. So don't dismiss these results as nonsense! More research needed!
 
Back
Top Bottom