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New Schiit. With measurements.

anmpr1

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Appart from bashing based on measurements, anyone listenned to it and observed some oddities?
Generally, you don't have to 'listen' to electronics. Regardless of the measurements (as long as they are not grotesque) you will not be able to tell any difference as long as levels are matched and they are not overdriven. With loudspeakers, it is always necessary to listen. I don't pay too much attention to loudspeaker measurements. They are interesting to look at and ponder, but for me to know how a loudspeaker sounds I have to listen. Preferably in my own living room. Not that way with preamps.
 

Martigane

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I am asking this because I own 2 headphone amps which measure audibly transparent (highest harmonics below -110dB, low IMD/noise etc..), yet there is a clearly audible difference when I switch between the two.
I'd be very curious to correlate measurements with what I hear (actually the reason why I created a blog). I think that, similar to how CSD/Waterfall can tell a lot about decay as on speakers, monitoring the behavior on the leading edge of a step/dirac would be very revealing for the attack.
 

solderdude

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Now the following questions pop up in my head.

Which amps are they ? (Whammy and Atom it seems)
Did you compare level matched ?
Did you compare them blind ?
Did you do enough comparisons (for statistical reference) ?
Which headphones ? modified HD58X
Is the output resistance of both amps known ? low enough in both cases.

'Attack' is in the 4-8kHz range and there is no amp that has difficulties with these frequencies.

You can measure squarewave response with the amp loaded with the headphones. Don't use more than 4Vtt as a test voltage.
Another test is to measure the current through the headphone. Connect a 10 Ohm between the headphone return (sleeve) and measure (scope/AP) the voltage across the 10 Ohm. make sure both drivers have signal.

Regarding the queste:
  • See if a correlation can be found between objective measurements and subjective impressions.
Good luck with that.

1st: familiarize yourself with what you 'think' is the sound signature.

If you are really looking for accurate and meaningful results I suggest you build a switch that can switch the outputs of both amps to the HD58X.
Use a music source with a variable volume control. Set the volume control of both amps once so they have the exact same gain (output level) within 0.1dB. Also do not forget there are 2 channels. This means levels between L and R need to match within 0.1dB.
Good luck with that, you may need a pot in front of each amp to correct for L-R balance which varies on volpot position.

The you need to limit the 'tests' to later in the evening and spread over many days (take a month for this) and do the tests when you are comfortable and rested.
The most important part is the blind test part. You can NEVER know what amp is playing.

For this you need to involve someone else that sets the switch in a certain position and that person must keep a log.
You must not be able to see the switch position !!!
That person must operate the switch when you are not present and needs to do this randomly every few days or so. It can remain in the same position for a week or several days in a row or switched the next day. NO pattern !
No switching when you are present !!!

All you need to do over a month or so is listen and make your notes what you think you hear. Possibly gamble (in your case know) what amp you think is used.

After a month or so compare your notes to that of the switch log and with enough statistical attempts (would say 20 attempts minimal) see how you scored and how accurate it was.

Then post your results here and not at SBAF (you will be regarded as 'deaf').
When you decide to test without such controls then post your results at SBAF and not at ASR (your results will be regarded as subjective non confirmed and worthless babble).

Succes.
 

Martigane

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Hi Solderdude,

Thanks for your reply. Indeed if I am coming on ASR it's to learn on audio measurements :).
I am very grateful for your HD58X mod and highly respectful of your work, HD58X sounds amazing on my end.
All your comments resonate a lot with my thinking, I already did most of the things you recommended:

Did you do enough comparisons (for statistical reference) ?
I am performing comparisons continuously and update my graphs and subjective impressions regularly, and they converge.
My static reference is the JDS Atom, my WHAMMY being the one where I perform component changes to improve it.
I just finished a first round of ... sit tight .. Op Amps subjective impressions. (Yes, yes, I checked they were not oscillating, and my Whammy has an extremely good decoupling.). Next step is to measure all those Op Amps, then I might be able to find some subjective Vs Objective correlation :)

You can measure squarewave response with the amp loaded with the headphones.
I did it already for the Whammy, but using a 160ohms dummy load (resistance) + 2m wire for capacitance, see below. I'll store all the amps/op amps 10k square responses on my blog once done.
scope_25.png

I also got an APX555 to perform proper measurements, so that will definitely be a powerful tool to compare my objective measurements of different amps and my listening impressions.

Set the volume control of both amps once so they have the exact same gain (output level) within 0.1dB
Also done via multimeter, within 0.1dB. I then handle volume on the common source. Did not check other channel, but out of memory they were very close.

Connect a 10 Ohm between the headphone return (sleeve) and measure (scope/AP) the voltage across the 10 Ohm.
I have a current probe available too. (but SNR will be bad given the low currents involved). I ll try what you suggested, but what do you expect to observe from this?

If you are really looking for accurate and meaningful results I suggest you build a switch that can switch the outputs of both amps to the HD58X.
I actually already built this exact switch, with guitar pedal push button so I do not know which position is which. A great tool :D
20200109_182621.jpg

"Blinder" blind test will follow up soon with a colleague, I got the luxury of being able to spend a working day listening to music :)

The you need to limit the 'tests' to later in the evening and spread over many days (take a month for this) and do the tests when you are comfortable and rested.
Great advice actually. Why the evening?

Then post your results here and not at SBAF (you will be regarded as 'deaf').
When you decide to test without such controls then post your results at SBAF and not at ASR (your results will be regarded as subjective non confirmed and worthless babble).
Very true, both ASR and SBAF have great added value to me. I wish both communities were less exclusively categorized as subjectivist or objectivists (and less PITA sometimes), because I am right in between.
Being able to update a main page with link to all results, and not having this kind of ASR Vs SBAF clash is the main reason why I created a blog..
 
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solderdude

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I did it already for the Whammy, but using a 160ohms dummy load (resistance) + 2m wire for capacitance, see below.

It is best to include the back EMF as well, hence the suggestion to test with real loads.
I have a current probe available too. (but SNR will be bad given the low currents involved). I ll try what you suggested, but what do you expect to observe from this?

If there are issues with the Atom they will be caused by back EMF around the points where the idle current of the output stages becomes close to 0mA. The Whammy at 60mA idle current won't have any issues.
If there are any this will be where to look.
Also try inductive and more capacitive loads (upto 10nF).

Great advice actually. Why the evening?

because Muscukus Tensor Tympany 'loosens' and makes the ear more sensitive. That's why you can hear a clock tick in the evening and not during the day (quiet clock).

I have been on both sides (actually was Changstar member as well before they blew it up), many harder core objectivists originate from the more logical and easy to 'pass' sighted subjective testing.

Of course all of this doesn't belong in the new Schiit thread but rather its own topic.
 
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guyman1

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So what is the consensus on the Asgard 3 now half a year later?
I'm looking for a new amplifier to power a pair of Beyerdynamic T1v2 and the Asgard 3 looks like a good contender.
I have a Magni 2 at the moment. The T1 gets loud enough with the Magni 2, but I'm unsure if it's optimal. Another thing is that I want an amplifier with a volume knob that is actually good and feels solid which leaves out the cheaper amps as far as I can tell. I'm certainly not particularly impressed with the one on the Magni.

The SMSL SP200 just about fits my budget, but it doesn't sound like the volume knob is anything impressive. And it sounds like it is impractical to use with sensitive headphones. Otherwise I would get that.

The El Amp II would be a good contender if it wasn't so expensive in Europe.

Sadly, there only appears to be subjective reviews of the Asgard 3 as of now. I do find those beneficial but the other side is missing. I don't really see a reason not to trust Schiit's own measurements, but I'm not exactly sure what to look for.
 

majingotan

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So what is the consensus on the Asgard 3 now half a year later?
I'm looking for a new amplifier to power a pair of Beyerdynamic T1v2 and the Asgard 3 looks like a good contender.
I have a Magni 2 at the moment. The T1 gets loud enough with the Magni 2, but I'm unsure if it's optimal. Another thing is that I want an amplifier with a volume knob that is actually good and feels solid which leaves out the cheaper amps as far as I can tell. I'm certainly not particularly impressed with the one on the Magni.

The SMSL SP200 just about fits my budget, but it doesn't sound like the volume knob is anything impressive. And it sounds like it is impractical to use with sensitive headphones. Otherwise I would get that.

The El Amp II would be a good contender if it wasn't so expensive in Europe.

Sadly, there only appears to be subjective reviews of the Asgard 3 as of now. I do find those beneficial but the other side is missing. I don't really see a reason not to trust Schiit's own measurements, but I'm not exactly sure what to look for.

It's not really performance that Asgard 3 excels, but rather the better volume pot it has compared to Magni Heresy (Magni has way better performance/measurements than Asgard 3) and other amps on its price range. To my subjective preferences (not just sonic but overall), I like their preamps and DACs but never felt love for their headphone amps
 
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Veri

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Imo when considering Asgard which is totally single-ended, I'd definitely consider saving up from the THX 798 or 887 amps, which both offer balanced inputs, and balanced output over both inputs (SE, BAL)...

The SP200 is indeed a good in-between, but its volume knob is a little meh, also its gain is damn high which needs to be taken in consideration.
 

guyman1

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It's not really performance that Asgard 3 excels, but rather the better volume pot it has compared to Magni Heresy (Magni has way better performance/measurements than Asgard 3) and other amps on its price range. To my subjective preferences (not just sonic but overall), I like their preamps and DACs but never felt love for their headphone amps
I've tried comparing the published measurements of the Magni 3+, Heresy and Asgard 3 under the knowledge that the Heresy measures the best. While I'm not entirely sure what I'm really looking at, there appears to be many areas where the 3+ and Asgard 3 seem to measure relatively close to each other.
I've only briefly delved into the alleged sonical differences between the 3+ and Heresy, but from what I remember reading, they are fairly close to the point where some people say they are indistinguishable, which leads me to question whether the Heresy's better performance/measurements compared to the Asgard 3 actually lead to audible differences.
 

majingotan

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I'm pretty sure that the Asgard 3 should not be audibly different from the 3+ since both have discrete output stage. Whether the better vol pot and the larger chassis is worth the extra $100 is up to you, but for me if I was in your situation, I'd thrown in the MM+MC phono pre card installed so that I can use it for TT, and that feature makes the price difference for me: https://www.schiit.com/products/phono-card
 

McLambo

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Whether the better vol pot and the larger chassis is worth the extra $100 is up to you,

This insinuates that those are the only differences between the 3+ and asgard. Are the rest of the components similar? (For the record: I have little knowledge on the specifics)

I do read other subjective reviews stating that the asgard does produce a more satisfying sound, so I'm wondering myself
 

solderdude

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Basically the Magni 3+ and Asgard 3 are the same circuit except:

Asgard has onboard power supply (Magni 3+ has external wallwart)
Asgard has a bit more power (only 1.4dB to 2dB more so negligible in a practical sense)
Asgard is bit bigger in size and weight (more substantial amp)
Asgard has a MUCH better volpot.
Asgard can also add a DAC or phono card.

All of this for a mere $100.- more.

The 'more satisfying sound' is not by technical nature but caused by the size, weight and feel of the volpot. One has a more 'substantial' feel and the brain automatically translates this to the aural sensation. If both were behind a curtain the same folks would not be able to tell.
Some folks 'believe' volpots have a sound and a more beefy transformer close to the caps will have benefits to the sound.

remember that most headphones draw just a few mW in normal listening situations so there really is no 'power' to speak of.
Peaks can be more demanding but these do not come from the transformer but out of the reservoir caps.
 
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lc155

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Been thinking of picking up an Asgard 3 as I've been debating moving from passive speakers to actives, and that would warrant a preamp of some sort. Figured I could simplify everything down to an all-in-one system, instead of the current speaker amp + o2dac I currently have (which does line out terribly).

I've seen the Atom + Topping D50S recommended, but of course that's a split system. If an AtomDAC existed I'd be all over, but alas...

So, how does the Asgard 3 (with DAC module) compare to the above for an all-in-one solution for headphones and actives?
 
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Veri

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Is that an all-in-one unit or separates? Because as I mentioned I'd prefer an all-in-one system, rather than a stack— much like the o2dac.
This is just the DAC complement to the Atom amp. There's a great many (generally pricier) all in one alternatives though.. JDS Element, Massdrop O2+SDAC, Topping DX3, Schiit Hel/Fulla, Schiit Asgard+DAC module, ....
 

lc155

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This is just the DAC complement to the Atom amp. There's a great many (generally pricier) all in one alternatives though.. JDS Element, Massdrop O2+SDAC, Topping DX3, Schiit Hel/Fulla, Schiit Asgard+DAC module, ....

Right, and I was wondering how the Asgard 3 is regarded here with the DAC module. I know ASR doesn't think too highly of much of the Schiit lineup, but with the Asgard 3 being a fairly new model, how is it?
 
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Veri

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Right, and I was wondering how the Asgard 3 is regarded here with the DAC module. I know ASR doesn't think too highly of much of the Schiit lineup, but with the Asgard 3 being a fairly new model, how is it?
Well. In terms of performance, if you go with the AKM DAC it will be similar to the Jotunheim with the same AK4490 module, but no balanced.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-schiit-jotunheim-with-ak4490-dac.6431/ measured and discussed here.

~96dB SINAD, good for 16-bit performance. Not that good. Not truly bad. For the $299, I would say mentioned alternatives are better bang for buck. But, Asgard should drive most headphones well, and I suppose resaleability is good, too. Up to you.
 

lc155

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Well. In terms of performance, if you go with the AKM DAC it will be similar to the Jotunheim with the same AK4490 module, but no balanced.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-schiit-jotunheim-with-ak4490-dac.6431/ measured and discussed here.

~96dB SINAD, good for 16-bit performance. Not that good. Not truly bad. For the $299, I would say mentioned alternatives are better bang for buck. But, Asgard should drive most headphones well, and I suppose resaleability is good, too. Up to you.

Thanks. Out of the alternatives you listed I am not a fan of the fingerprinty finish of the JDS aluminium stuff, the O2 design makes the line-out pretty ****** for usage (having to unplug the lineouts is crap).

The topping DX3 does look pretty decent though, using a remote to switch between line out and headphones and so on.
 
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Veri

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Thanks. Out of the alternatives you listed I am not a fan of the fingerprinty finish of the JDS aluminium stuff, the O2 design makes the line-out pretty ****** for usage (having to unplug the lineouts is crap).

Yeah, the Atom line-out with pre-amp functionality is a lot better and user-friendly. But you'd need a DAC to go with it :) The DX3 is a good all rounder, but has ~10ohm output impedance. Should this ever be a problem, you could fix it with external amp but then you're at separates once again.
 
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