New Schiit SYN - Analog Surround Sound Processor

[Settembrini]

Nope -- but I cannot grok thinking that there's any mixing, up down, or sideways going on with the Hafler circuit -- at least in terms of ambience recovery.
Although, to David Hafler's credit, the three-gang rheostat to adjust the mix -- ahem -- levels was clever.

cheers, now that is a knowledge-based answer sir!
jajajaja I am just an ignorant trying to understand, but hey, I hope that (in a while, after some reading) I could grasp what this diagramm means

PS: Is this the same process that the Sansui encoding devices performed?

 

[Sal1950]

Do these upmixers sound considerably better than (for instance) an Sansui QS-1 for upmixing from stereo to 4.0?

What upmixer sounds best is an argument that can go on forever, everyone seems to have a fav.
Personally the DS, Auro, and DTS options in my Denon mostly satisfy me, I may quickly switch between them to see which
I find works best with any one particular recording. Mostly as of late I find DS with "center spread" engaged is very good.
I don't see any sense in going crazy over things, they all are just trying to fake discrete surround and that's not possible.
Thankfully I have hundreds of real quad, 5.1, Atmos, etc to play.

 

[mhardy6647]

cheers, now that is a knowledge-based answer sir!
jajajaja I am just an ignorant trying to understand, but hey, I hope that (in a while, after some reading) I could grasp what this diagramm means

PS: Is this the same process that the Sansui encoding devices performed?

The bottom line for the simplest ambience recovery schemes is to send out of phase signal to the rear speakers.

amusingly, this graphic (albeit originating in Everyday Electronics) was lifted from another thread here at ASR.

Brian Eno 3 speaker setup, Hafler circuit, etc.

I just watched a new video from Paul/PS Audio () regarding Brian Eno's suggestion to use a 3rd speaker connected to the positive terminals of your amp, placed behind, to play the uncommon audio from both channels, potentially playing audio not heard with a standard 2-speaker setup. Does anyone...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Does the Syn do anything else technological? Maybe even upmixy? For the price, I sure hope so!

Those who don't learn from old "techologies" are doomed to repeat them.
EDIT: Oh, @Settembrini if you're interested at all in the brute force approach to "surround sound", this might be of interest:

Quadraphonic Musings

midimagic.sgc-hosting.com

 

[Sal1950]

LOL

What do you say about this beauty (Syn's granma)? Still worth it? Or way too vintage to give it a try?
And which price would be a non ripoff?

Are you a collector of vintage gear?
Do to it's age the likelihood of failing cap's etc: and the need for service is high.
Cosmetically it looks terrific.
As to value, etc; you might ask one of the guys at Quadraphonic Quad where many collectors hangs out.

Quadraphonic Hardware

Demodulators, Decoders, and Shibata...plus a whole lot more!

www.quadraphonicquad.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

The bottom line for the simplest ambience recovery schemes is to send out of phase signal to the rear speakers.
View attachment 420620
amusingly, this graphic (albeit originating in Everyday Electronics) was lifted from another thread here at ASR.

Brian Eno 3 speaker setup, Hafler circuit, etc.

I just watched a new video from Paul/PS Audio () regarding Brian Eno's suggestion to use a 3rd speaker connected to the positive terminals of your amp, placed behind, to play the uncommon audio from both channels, potentially playing audio not heard with a standard 2-speaker setup. Does anyone...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Does the Syn do anything else technological? Maybe even upmixy? For the price, I sure hope so!

Those who don't learn from old "techologies" are doomed to repeat them.
EDIT: Oh, @Settembrini if you're interested at all in the brute force approach to "surround sound", this might be of interest:

Quadraphonic Musings

midimagic.sgc-hosting.com

Those who don't learn from old "techologies" are doomed to repeat them.

I may have to steal that. Too cute.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'll try a written explanation of the Hafler circuit which might help someone understand how simple it is.

Let us start with stereo speakers. Send a mono signal to the pair. Connect a third speaker with one connector on the PLUS connector of the left speaker, and one connector on the PLUS connector of the right speaker. With a mono signal the signal to both speakers is the same and nothing will happen with the third speaker.

Now play a stereo signal where each channel is different. The voltage across that third speaker is no longer zero and that third speaker will make sound. The sound you are hearing is the difference between each channel or the difference signal. Run long speaker cables and put that third speaker well behind you so the difference signal comes from the rear.

Now do the same connection with a 4th speaker and put it behind you, but in opposite phase to the third speaker. You how have two speakers well behind you playing a non-correlated difference signal. That is what the Hafler circuit does. Add a little delay by putting them further behind you than the front speakers are in front of you and you have the simple surround matrix.

That is why calling this "up-mixing" is humorous.

 

[Sal1950]

That is why calling this "up-mixing" is humorous.

Yep, maybe more properly called ambiance extraction, but even that is a misnomer.
I played around with a couple options back in the 70s but to me the weird freq response balance they added to
the sound was unacceptable.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yep, maybe more properly called ambiance extraction, but even that is a misnomer.
I played around with a couple options back in the 70s but to me the weird freq response balance they added to
the sound was unacceptable.

I played with it in the 1980s. At one time had a very long listening room. Had Acoustat Two ESLs up front, and pair of Maggie MG2s in the rear. It did something, but it just wasn't satisfying with most music. If I remember rightly, I had a Mark Levinson ML-9 on the ESLs and a Carver receiver playing the rear Maggies.

 

[Settembrini]

With a mono signal the signal to both speakers is the same and nothing will happen with the third speaker.

Now play a stereo signal where each channel is different. The voltage across that third speaker is no longer zero and that third speaker will make sound.

If I understand correctly, when using mono the third speaker won't sound because phase and counter-phase are the same and therefore cancel each other, right?

 

[Blumlein 88]

If I understand correctly, when using mono the third speaker won't sound because phase and counter-phase are the same and therefore cancel each other, right?

Yes.

 

[Settembrini]

Yes.

Cheers, and thanks for the helpful explanation!

 

[livinon2wheels]

I see the primary use for this as a way to get enhanced spatial effects from a stereo source. Much like the old Dynaco approach except done at low level. I had at one time an old dynaco SCA80Q amp that had their 4 channel simulation built in and liked the effect. Back then I was still in college so it was a kind of fad or so I thought at the time. Never suspected then that we would have 16 channel systems like some do today. The most I have ever had is 6.1 and I think I am probably permanently stuck at 5.1. This Syn is intriguing simply because it conforms to no standard whatsoever. I dont expect it to replace a well set up dolby based processor and amps but I do see it as a piece worth having so if your processor has to go out for service (mine does), you have something in its place while the main processor is being replaced. That said, I placed an order for one early this past week. If I don't like it, I'll know pretty quickly and will return it.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I have a Syn and I like it and it has some problems. In my view, the first is the fixed 80hz crossover on the subwoofer out. Then there is the inability to apply EQ. I got round this using a Wiim Ultra, sub out to my subwoofers and then line out to the Syn. But then my rear speakers and center can't be EQ'd. The solution might be to add an extra ADC by adding a Minidsp Flex into the chain but I avoid adding extra ADC steps.

 

[livinon2wheels]

I have a Syn and I like it and it has some problems. In my view, the first is the fixed 80hz crossover on the subwoofer out. Then there is the inability to apply EQ. I got round this using a Wiim Ultra, sub out to my subwoofers and then line out to the Syn. But then my rear speakers and center can't be EQ'd. The solution might be to add an extra ADC by adding a Minidsp Flex into the chain but I avoid adding extra ADC steps.

Interesting observations on the inadequacies of this as a processor...I see this as a true minimalist processor for a non audiophile based setup. It probably won't be something I will want to live with long term but I figured it might be worth trying. We shall see. I may well end up sending it back and doubling down on a Cinema 30 or something in that class. What I am hoping for is a long term solution that works reliably. My experience with Emotiva processors has me very gun shy of the current generation of processors on the market. It seems that you have to spend something over 4k to get a reliable and functional AV receiver/processor. Adding HDMI to AV receivers was a mistake they keep using even though the format is hopelessly flawed in many implementations across multiple brands. Being that the operational issues are across multiple models and product lines of all manufacturers, I have to blame it on the HDMI standard being flaky. That said it appears the higher end models work better if not flawlessly based on user reviews of the different models. Having a satisfactory viewing/listening experience without the operational glitches imposed by HDMI is pretty compelling. Its an experiment that if it turns out not to be great for movies, I expect the music experience to be a good one in which case it will find its way to my office if I decide to keep it anyway.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Interesting observations on the inadequacies of this as a processor...I see this as a true minimalist processor for a non audiophile based setup. It probably won't be something I will want to live with long term but I figured it might be worth trying. We shall see. I may well end up sending it back and doubling down on a Cinema 30 or something in that class. What I am hoping for is a long term solution that works reliably. My experience with Emotiva processors has me very gun shy of the current generation of processors on the market. It seems that you have to spend something over 4k to get a reliable and functional AV receiver/processor. Adding HDMI to AV receivers was a mistake they keep using even though the format is hopelessly flawed in many implementations across multiple brands. Being that the operational issues are across multiple models and product lines of all manufacturers, I have to blame it on the HDMI standard being flaky. That said it appears the higher end models work better if not flawlessly based on user reviews of the different models. Having a satisfactory viewing/listening experience without the operational glitches imposed by HDMI is pretty compelling. Its an experiment that if it turns out not to be great for movies, I expect the music experience to be a good one in which case it will find its way to my office if I decide to keep it anyway.

I'm thinking of doing something similar, a decent Marantz or Denon AV Receiver and use Auro 3d for music.

I failed to mention that in a 4.2 setup where the Front speakers and subwoofers were EQ'd (speakers with 10 band PEQ on a Wiim Ultra and SVS subwoofers with 3 band PEQ) and the rear speakers out of the Syn sounded excellent to me with music.

 

[livinon2wheels]

I am merely days away from experiencing Schitt analog decoding magic. Well it may not be magic, but we are going to find out pretty quickly. If it sucks it will go back to the source. The next move will be Marantz 30 or av-10. I'm excited to see where this goes.

 

[EJ3]

I played with it in the 1980s. At one time had a very long listening room. Had Acoustat Two ESLs up front, and pair of Maggie MG2s in the rear. It did something, but it just wasn't satisfying with most music. If I remember rightly, I had a Mark Levinson ML-9 on the ESLs and a Carver receiver playing the rear Maggies.

Back in the mid/late 1970'-80's (I was 17-mid 20's then) a friend (who rented the top floor of a mansion) had a 2 pair of Acoustat X's & several (more than 2, maybe 4) 18" subs built into the floor, several Crown 300 amps, a pair of G.A.S. Thaedra Preamps and had some surround sound Reel to Reel going on.
I was impressed by the sound. I'm not sure that I have been as impressed by an audio (yep, visual, [as well as the people there], too) experience since then. (I was fortunate to be a regular at his parties).
These days he's into the restoration, collecting & selling of U.S. Revolutionary Era French shotguns...

 

[Sal1950]

I was impressed by the sound. I'm not sure that I have been as impressed by an audio (yep, visual, [as well as the people there], too) experience since then. (I was fortunate to be a regular at his parties).

This is very often the case when a great surround rig is heard by a music lover, even using the old Quad tech.
It's a shame that we read so often the opposed experience, "I heard surround and it sucks" because that listener was treated to
some real crap rig.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Magic Schiit is happening at my place now. Spent a couple of hours hooking everything up yesterday afternoon. 3 500wpc Hypex amps and a Syn and once I adjusted levels sat back and watched a movie and listened to some music. Subjectively, the combo sounds way better than my MR1L ever did in terms of sheer audio quality. While the Syn gives very pleasant effects for movies that are more than a little surprising, I did not like the 5 channel effect on music...perhaps it would be better if I turned down the center channel levels a bit, but I have it set so it works well on movie soundtracks, so music presented thru the center channel just doesnt sound right to me. I will listen some more over the next few days and see what can be done to satisfy my taste in presentation of music thru this system. On the plus side the Syn is clean and crisp and vocals sound really good, ethereally good in fact. Truly blown away by the upper end and mids presentation. It seems a bit shy on bass to my ears, not seriously so but just marginally. Overall, very lively and whatever tricks they are doing inside the box, it definitely works well enough as a set and forget easy to operate system. The lack of EQ is lamentable but easily fixed by adding in one of Schiit's EQ boxes for another 180 bucks shipped. I ordered one of them to add to the mix and see how good we can make this system sound. Ultimately this may end up being my desktop system.

 

[livinon2wheels]

And on another note, I recently acquired a blast from the past Dynaco Quad adapter box that I plan on using in the garage system. ought be a step up from the typical garage offering. To paraphrase our esteemed President, "With the quad adaptor, we get audio for 4 speakers out of one big beautiful amp." I am sure Donald won't mind being plagiarized by me.