New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

[Buckchester]

Dirac ART focuses 20 to 150Hz and core DLBC takes over from there to capture full range. I wouldn’t knee-cap Dirac’s FR application. Sounds wonderful! Have you tried Dirac ART or DLBC? Dirac improves the in-room performance of virtually all speakers IMHO, not just those that “don’t measure great on their own” as you seem to suggest. What is your system configuration? My current configuration is below. I have been unable to update my ASR profile due to admin globally locking edits to combat spam issues. The 3-way PSA MTM212’s have been Klippel optimized with the upgraded crossover to take full advantage of the big B&C DCX464 coaxial CD and measure very well on their own.

Subs:

• 4 x PSA S42-IPAL (each is dual-opposed 21” configuration) in USA satin finish, powered by two SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT-R rack-mount amplifiers (6K WPC, 220v) (Blue Jeans LC-1 RCA, Jensen ISO-MAX SUB-1RR, SVS SoundPath Isolation feet)

Speakers:

• Revel Última2 Salon2 = FL, FR
• PSA MTM212-M = SBL, C, SBR (on JBL JS-150 speaker stands with SVS SoundPath Isolation Feet);
• JBL Professional SCS12 = FHL, CH, FHR, RHL, RHR
• PSA MT-110SR-M = SL, SR
• JBL Studio 6 88LCR in-walls = FWL, FWR
• JBL Professional Control 322C = TML, TMR, TS/VoG
• Speaker cable = Belden Brilliance 1311A 12AWG

Configuration:

• 9 base/ear layer speakers; 4 subs; 5 heights; 3 tops

I have Revel f208s and a c208. I use Audyssey xt32 and keep my EQ to below 500hz.

 

[Oddball]

Dirac ART focuses 20 to 150Hz and core DLBC takes over from there to capture full range. I wouldn’t knee-cap Dirac’s FR application. Sounds wonderful! Have you tried Dirac ART or DLBC? Dirac improves the in-room performance of virtually all speakers IMHO, not just those that “don’t measure great on their own” as you seem to suggest. What is your system configuration? My current configuration is below. I have been unable to update my ASR profile due to admin globally locking edits to combat spam issues. The 3-way PSA MTM212’s have been Klippel optimized with the upgraded crossover to take full advantage of the big B&C DCX464 coaxial CD and measure very well on their own.

Subs:

• 4 x PSA S42-IPAL (each is dual-opposed 21” configuration) in USA satin finish, powered by two SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT-R rack-mount amplifiers (6K WPC, 220v) (Blue Jeans LC-1 RCA, Jensen ISO-MAX SUB-1RR, SVS SoundPath Isolation feet)

Speakers:

• Revel Última2 Salon2 = FL, FR
• PSA MTM212-M = SBL, C, SBR (on JBL JS-150 speaker stands with SVS SoundPath Isolation Feet);
• JBL Professional SCS12 = FHL, CH, FHR, RHL, RHR
• PSA MT-110SR-M = SL, SR
• JBL Studio 6 88LCR in-walls = FWL, FWR
• JBL Professional Control 322C = TML, TMR, TS/VoG
• Speaker cable = Belden Brilliance 1311A 12AWG

Configuration:

• 9 base/ear layer speakers; 4 subs; 5 heights; 3 tops

Amazing system. Congrats .

 

[Buckchester]

Let me edit and update the "as I understand it" sentence I wrote originally. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements, across the entire frequency range. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room, usually limited to below the Schroeder frequency. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes, across whatever frequencies the listener prefers.

Some active speakers have the anechoic EQ programmed and stored in the speaker itself. This is not possible with passives, so the anechoic EQ info is stored and applied by the processor.

JBL/Arcam could guarantee improved processor/receiver sales if they included anechoic EQ info for the PerformaBe, Performa3 and Concerta2 speakers lines. Alotta folks love these speakers, and see no real reason to change. Taking their legacy speakers up another notch, however, would tempt a lot of owners.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think anechoic EQ would provide EQ parameters below the room transition frequency. EQ at that range needs to be based on in-room measurements.

 

[amper42]

Soliciting speaker EQ as a feature by the manufacturer seems stupid to me. Why didn't they just design the crossover correctly to begin with?

I can always add room EQ later. I want the speaker crossover as flat as possible in the original design. Not variable.

 

[Oddball]

Let me edit and update the "as I understand it" sentence I wrote originally. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements, across the entire frequency range. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room, usually limited to below the Schroeder frequency. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes, across whatever frequencies the listener prefers.

Some active speakers have the anechoic EQ programmed and stored in the speaker itself. This is not possible with passives, so the anechoic EQ info is stored and applied by the processor.

JBL/Arcam could guarantee improved processor/receiver sales if they included anechoic EQ info for the PerformaBe, Performa3 and Concerta2 speakers lines. Alotta folks love these speakers, and see no real reason to change. Taking their legacy speakers up another notch, however, would tempt a lot of owners.

Yep, that's also how I understand it to work. Manual EQ is subject to availability though on particular piece of hardware with particular room correction. For example D&M has tone controls after Audy, but not after Dirac.

Than there is the whole debate around cut off point for EQ. Think you summed it nicely to "usually limited". There are always oddball cases .

 

[Buckchester]

Soliciting speaker EQ as a feature by the manufacturer seems stupid to me. Why didn't they just design the crossover correctly to begin with?

I can always add room EQ later. I want the speaker crossover as flat as possible in the original design. Not variable.

I’m not sure it’s possible to do that without invoking a trade off. Otherwise, all passive loudspeakers could have ruler-flat frequency response.

And in-room EQ is unpredictable at higher frequencies. In-room EQ will make adjustments in the combined direct and reflected sound, which is different from how our earns and brain process the sound.

 

[kyuu]

Since all of this info is such a major departure from Revel's previous product lines, for me it raises more questions than it answers.
I wonder if this "optional" software equalization is designed to smooth out deficiencies in the new design compromises.

I very much hope this is a bonus rather than a requirement. Revel's designs, even the lower-tiers, have always had very good frequency response where correction is generally unnecessary. This is contrast to something like the JBL Synthesis line, for example, where the speakers are extremely capable but it's plain from the frequency responses that they are intended for use in systems where the installers will be utilizing EQ to linearize the speakers' response.

 

[MoreWatts]

I could be wrong

The dealer at AVSForum posted this example for the JBL SCL-1 speaker. The SCL-1 is 2-Way Dual 12-inch (300mm) LCR loudspeaker.

Here's the SCL-1 without anechoic EQ applied. This is essentially the anechoic/Klippel measurement:

Here's the SCL-1 with the anechoic EQ applied. We can see it extends across the full frequency range:

 

[kyuu]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think anechoic EQ would provide EQ parameters below the room transition frequency. EQ at that range needs to be based on in-room measurements.

No, you can linearize the anechoic response as low as you like. I'm not sure it makes much sense to do it below Schroeder if you're applying room correction in that region anyway, however.

 

[Imakeller]

I have Revel f208s and a c208. I use Audyssey xt32 and keep my EQ to below 500hz.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree at the risk of further thread sidetracking, but if you get the chance to try full range Dirac (DLBC+ART), do it!

 

[Chromatischism]

Since all of this info is such a major departure from Revel's previous product lines, for me it raises more questions than it answers.
I wonder if this "optional" software equalization is designed to smooth out deficiencies in the new design compromises.

Well, that's a bit of a loaded question, don't you think?

Design compromises?

 

[MoreWatts]

Soliciting speaker EQ as a feature by the manufacturer seems stupid to me. Why didn't they just design the crossover correctly to begin with?

I can always add room EQ later. I want the speaker crossover as flat as possible in the original design. Not variable.

Harman has to deal with the situation that they are a mass-market manufacturer. They probably sell more speakers in a week than Genelec sells in a year. Below is how they got reference response for the Salon2. I'm sure they've found this to be impractical.

@Imakeller, I apologize for blatantly stealing/reposting your comment at AVSForum:

"According to Robert Harley’s Salon2 review in the Absolute Sound:

'A set of drivers and crossover filter boards are put together and measured in an anechoic chamber (before installation into a finished cabinet). The technician then tweaks the filter boards so that the response of the system is within 0.5dB of the reference. This technique compensates for inevitable slight variations in the drivers and crossover components, and assures that the final product performs identically to the reference. In addition, identical response from a left/right pair is crucial to imaging; slight response differences result in diffuse imaging, along with changes in imaging with pitch.'”

 

[Chromatischism]

Soliciting speaker EQ as a feature by the manufacturer seems stupid to me. Why didn't they just design the crossover correctly to begin with?

The crossover can be "correct".

But there are limitations with what you can do.

I'm the furthest thing from a crossover designer, but I understand it's better to send an optimized signal than to build in tons of components trying to EQ but which can't shape response as accurately and eat up sensitivity trying.

 

[Buckchester]

Some comments from Floyd Toole about room curve targets, room EQ and more

Room curve targets Every so often it is good to review what we know about room curves, targets, etc. Almost 50 years of double-blind listening tests have shown persuasively that listeners like loudspeakers with flat, smooth, anechoic on-axis and listening-window frequency responses. Those with...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[tineared]

Well, that's a bit of a loaded question, don't you think?

Design compromises?

What would you call the transition from 8" drivers to 6.5" drivers and smaller cabinet sizes?

 

[Chromatischism]

'A set of drivers and crossover filter boards are put together and measured in an anechoic chamber (before installation into a finished cabinet). The technician then tweaks the filter boards so that the response of the system is within 0.5dB of the reference. This technique compensates for inevitable slight variations in the drivers and crossover components, and assures that the final product performs identically to the reference. In addition, identical response from a left/right pair is crucial to imaging; slight response differences result in diffuse imaging, along with changes in imaging with pitch.'”

So if you have to get a new driver, you'd need to actually replace the whole set of drivers and the crossover, and load a new EQ file.

 

[Chromatischism]

What would you call the transition from 8" drivers to 6.5" drivers and smaller cabinet sizes?

What is this?

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Floorstanding Speaker Review

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Floorstanding Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[tineared]

What is this?

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Floorstanding Speaker Review

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Floorstanding Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

What was this?

Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel F208 speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for measurements. Revel F208 costs $2,500 each or US $5,000 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital is a dealer for Revel speakers. Feel free to read as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chromatischism]

What is this?

Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel F208 speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for measurements. Revel F208 costs $2,500 each or US $5,000 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital is a dealer for Revel speakers. Feel free to read as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

An old speaker that was replaced by the F228be.

They will probably launch the largest models later.

Remember, it took years to get the F328.

 

[Imakeller]

Soliciting speaker EQ as a feature by the manufacturer seems stupid to me. Why didn't they just design the crossover correctly to begin with?

I can always add room EQ later. I want the speaker crossover as flat as possible in the original design. Not variable.

I definitely agree with you in spirit! As @Chromatischism alluded to, there’s only so far you can go with a passive crossover before further refinement requires going active. Did Revel/Arcam get to that point with the new speakers? I have no idea.

Not saying it happened here, but it can border on the ridiculous at what some speaker companies do in the name of cost control when it comes to crossovers. Also, I don’t think Revel/Arcam decided to just “hit the Easy Button” with AEQ. It’s genuinely a nice feature. Yes, there’s some marketing and exclusivity baked-in to sway people towards compatible AVRs/AVPs/amps, but I agree with @kyuu that it’s a nice option.

I do hope they publish the PEQ parameters used for AEQ so people can apply them with non-AEQ compatible gear.