New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

[MoreWatts]

Here's some specs on the larger bookshelf/M106 replacement, which is the Arcam Radia R25 or Revel Performa4 M146. New model specs are from the Arcam website. M106 specs are from the owner's manual.

Spec	M146/R25	M106
1-inch tweeter material	Deep Ceramic Composite	aluminum
woofer driver, inches & material	6.5 Micro Ceramic Composite	6.5 aluminum
cross-over point, Hz	1.7 k	2.3 k
nominal impedance, ohms	6	8
sensitivity, dB (2.83V/1m)	85.5	87
amplifier power range, watts	15 - 200	50 - 150
bi-wire options	yes	no
mounting points	yes	none
port placement	rear	rear
dimensions, H x W x D; in. (mm)	14.1 x 9.7 x 12.7 (359 x 246 x 323)	15 x 8.25 x 11 (381 x 210 x 278)
weight, lb. (kg)	24.3 (11)	18.5 (8.4)
frequency range, +- 6 dB	43 Hz to 40 kHz	59 Hz to ? kHz

The crossover, impedance and sensitivity are lower on the new model.

Handles slightly more power, can use a smaller amp, plays slightly lower than and is about 30% heavier than the M106.

The new one has "a hidden mounting system."

 

[kyuu]

The crossover, impedance and sensitivity are lower on the new model.

Crossover and sensitivity (since it's not Kilpsch) are okay enough to go on based on specs, but nominal impedance is largely a meaningless metric. And even worse...

Handles slightly more power, can use a smaller amp

Power handling specs are meaningless, and you can't decide what kind of amp you can or should use based on it.

 

[MoreWatts]

Already discussed in post #49 upthread.

Those specs are meaningless.

I know. Just postin' the info from Revel/Arcam.

 

[Chromatischism]

Nice to see new stuff from Revel but these look more like Concerta3 crossed with Infinity Reference than Performa4. A new direction.

Advertised prices are steep but of course no one should pay MSRP—always work with a Revel dealer who can get you a better deal.

 

[mmeysarosh]

I wouldn't consider this line an upgrade from the prior Performa3 series as the design indicates different compromises being taken to potentially make it fit some spaces better.

Midrange is enlarged and the new waveguide is narrowed and this could lead to better directivity, but reduced dispersion width. You can reach similar low with the smaller driver, but you might compromise in dynamics and compression, but mostly in larger spaces.

I still see this direction as being a practical move and potentially a better performer in certain areas, but not all. I dislike the limiting of finishes, but clearly economic choices.

 

[MoreWatts]

Here's a new, distinguishing feature available in the Performa4/Arcam Radia speakers. Quotes from the dealer at AVSForum:

"Arcam Radia loudspeakers (R15, R25, R35, R45, R35C) feature anechoic EQ (AEQ) when paired with Arcam SA35/SA45 streaming amplifiers or future Radia AV receivers.

DSP is applied to smooth the speaker's raw frequency response by using the anechoic measurement data for it. It is done via tuning files in the .... processor. After that is done, room correction is done, i.e tuning the loudspeaker's response based on microphone measurements in the room.

Anechoic data from Harman is available in the SDP-75, some Crown and Synthesis amps, and BSS processors for some Revel speakers (Salon2), and some JBL Synthesis speakers (the SCL series). [The JBL M2 has this feature with JBL processors and certain Crown amps, with digital crossover functions.]

Harman has added anechoic tuning files to the capable ARCAM products (SA35/45, new AVA’s and AVP) so you can get performance improvements compared to using other loudspeakers."

This feature will now be available in more modestly priced loudspeakers, with their passive crossovers.

No word on whether the processors that have this feature will be branded as Arcam or JBL (or ?) for the USA market.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room as usual. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes.

This puts a whole new twist on the Performa4/Arcam Radia speaker line-up.

 

[Oddball]

This is an interesting feature. We would also need to better understand how it works with Dirac and ART.

I wonder if one could somehow load files for other speakers to achieve the same effect?

 

[Chromatischism]

We would also need to better understand how it works with Dirac and ART.

It's just speaker EQ. Think of it like using room correction with an active speaker. Its native response is already corrected, and it doesn't matter to the room EQ which is taking care of room issues.

 

[kharan]

Let's see if someone can get them on a Klippel first before

Here's a new, distinguishing feature available in the Performa4/Arcam Radia speakers. Quotes from the dealer at AVSForum:

"Arcam Radia loudspeakers (R15, R25, R35, R45, R35C) feature anechoic EQ (AEQ) when paired with Arcam SA35/SA45 streaming amplifiers or future Radia AV receivers.

DSP is applied to smooth the speaker's raw frequency response by using the anechoic measurement data for it. It is done via tuning files in the .... processor. After that is done, room correction is done, i.e tuning the loudspeaker's response based on microphone measurements in the room.

Anechoic data from Harman is available in the SDP-75, some Crown and Synthesis amps, and BSS processors for some Revel speakers (Salon2), and some JBL Synthesis speakers (the SCL series). [The JBL M2 has this feature with JBL processors and certain Crown amps, with digital crossover functions.]

Harman has added anechoic tuning files to the capable ARCAM products (SA35/45, new AVA’s and AVP) so you can get performance improvements compared to using other loudspeakers."

This feature will now be available in more modestly priced loudspeakers, with their passive crossovers.

No word on whether the processors that have this feature will be branded as Arcam or JBL (or ?) for the USA market.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room as usual. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes.

This puts a whole new twist on the Performa4/Arcam Radia speaker line-up.

That brings a lot of questions.

You can get exceedingly good anechoic measurements with "merely" passive crossovers, driver placement, and cabinet geometry. That you can still to improve something substantially with merely EQ without touching the crossover leaves me perplexed.

You can EQ to taste or provide other tunings, but I don't see how you would make a universally superior tuning with EQ that's applied via AVR when you could bake it in the speaker itself.

In this case, where you're still using the speaker passively, the only universal improved that could be applied electronically that couldn't be baked in the speaker design, is if you linearise the phase of the speaker electronically.

 

[Oddball]

It's just speaker EQ. Think of it like using room correction with an active speaker. Its native response is already corrected, and it doesn't matter to the room EQ which is taking care of room issues.

Thanks - this is still useful, but not as much as I was dreaming it up. With Storm and HTP-1 you can use PEQ to achieve similar effect, but that would be manual process.

 

[Buckchester]

Here's a new, distinguishing feature available in the Performa4/Arcam Radia speakers. Quotes from the dealer at AVSForum:

"Arcam Radia loudspeakers (R15, R25, R35, R45, R35C) feature anechoic EQ (AEQ) when paired with Arcam SA35/SA45 streaming amplifiers or future Radia AV receivers.

DSP is applied to smooth the speaker's raw frequency response by using the anechoic measurement data for it. It is done via tuning files in the .... processor. After that is done, room correction is done, i.e tuning the loudspeaker's response based on microphone measurements in the room.

Anechoic data from Harman is available in the SDP-75, some Crown and Synthesis amps, and BSS processors for some Revel speakers (Salon2), and some JBL Synthesis speakers (the SCL series). [The JBL M2 has this feature with JBL processors and certain Crown amps, with digital crossover functions.]

Harman has added anechoic tuning files to the capable ARCAM products (SA35/45, new AVA’s and AVP) so you can get performance improvements compared to using other loudspeakers."

This feature will now be available in more modestly priced loudspeakers, with their passive crossovers.

No word on whether the processors that have this feature will be branded as Arcam or JBL (or ?) for the USA market.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room as usual. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes.

This puts a whole new twist on the Performa4/Arcam Radia speaker line-up.

That is a very interesting feature.

 

[Buckchester]

Here's a new, distinguishing feature available in the Performa4/Arcam Radia speakers. Quotes from the dealer at AVSForum:

"Arcam Radia loudspeakers (R15, R25, R35, R45, R35C) feature anechoic EQ (AEQ) when paired with Arcam SA35/SA45 streaming amplifiers or future Radia AV receivers.

DSP is applied to smooth the speaker's raw frequency response by using the anechoic measurement data for it. It is done via tuning files in the .... processor. After that is done, room correction is done, i.e tuning the loudspeaker's response based on microphone measurements in the room.

Anechoic data from Harman is available in the SDP-75, some Crown and Synthesis amps, and BSS processors for some Revel speakers (Salon2), and some JBL Synthesis speakers (the SCL series). [The JBL M2 has this feature with JBL processors and certain Crown amps, with digital crossover functions.]

Harman has added anechoic tuning files to the capable ARCAM products (SA35/45, new AVA’s and AVP) so you can get performance improvements compared to using other loudspeakers."

This feature will now be available in more modestly priced loudspeakers, with their passive crossovers.

No word on whether the processors that have this feature will be branded as Arcam or JBL (or ?) for the USA market.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room as usual. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes.

This puts a whole new twist on the Performa4/Arcam Radia speaker line-up.

This feature, if used, could very well make them exceed the sound of their predecessors. Not to be overlooked, I feel.

 

[Imakeller]

Thanks - this is still useful, but not as much as I was dreaming it up. With Storm and HTP-1 you can use PEQ to achieve similar effect, but that would be manual process.

True. I didn’t understand this AEQ feature at first, but it’s “just” a customized PEQ based on the anechoic measurement of the speaker. AEQ attempts to optimize the native speaker, then Dirac ART attempts to optimize for the room. Theoretically, this type of PEQ makes the room EQ software’s job easier.

Like anechoic measurements, Klippel NFS measurements also measure the native speaker without room affects, so an intrepid user could use those measurements, if available, to fashion some PEQ settings similar to what AEQ is doing. I imagine AEQ is more refined, but we don’t know how many EQ adjustments AEQ is implementing. I think the JBL M2 AEQ settings have become public knowledge, so probably something similar to that in number of adjustments being made.

 

[Buckchester]

True. I didn’t understand this AEQ feature at first, but it’s “just” a customized PEQ based on the anechoic measurement of the speaker. AEQ attempts to optimize the native speaker, then Dirac ART attempts to optimize for the room. Theoretically, this type of PEQ makes the room EQ software’s job easier.

Like anechoic measurements, Klippel NFS measurements also measure the native speaker without room affects, so an intrepid user could use those measurements, if available, to fashion some PEQ settings similar to what AEQ is doing. I imagine AEQ is more refined, but we don’t know how many EQ adjustments AEQ is implementing. I think the JBL M2 AEQ settings have become public knowledge, so probably something similar to that in number of adjustments being made.

More specifically:

Room EQ, like Dirac, should only be applied below the room transition frequency (e.g. ~200-300hz). Below these frequencies room modes dominate our perception of the sound.

However, the higher you go up in frequency, the less impact the room has on the sound, instead it is the direct sound of the speaker which dominates our perception. These frequencies need to be EQed based on anechoic measurements. If you EQ these on in room measurements, the EQ is being applied to the combined direct and indirect sound. But at those frequencies, it is the direct sound that we need to EQ, which is what the anechoic response provides.

 

[Imakeller]

More specifically:

Room EQ, like Dirac, should only be applied below the room transition frequency (e.g. ~200-300hz). Below these frequencies room modes dominate our perception of the sound.

However, the higher you go up in frequency, the less impact the room has on the sound, instead it is the direct sound of the speaker which dominates our perception. These frequencies need to be EQed based on anechoic measurements. If you EQ these on in room measurements, the EQ is being applied to the combined direct and indirect sound. But at those frequencies, it is the direct sound that we need to EQ, which is what the anechoic response provides.

Dirac Live corrects the full 20 Hz–20 kHz range and attempts to optimize the in-room response. While I can see how PEQ/AEQ can be helpful, the results I’m getting with Dirac ART alone have been excellent.

 

[Buckchester]

Dirac Live corrects the full 20 Hz–20 kHz range and attempts to optimize the in-room response. While I can see how PEQ/AEQ can be helpful, the results I’m getting with Dirac ART alone have been excellent.

Are you positive it sounds better? Because these points I’ve outlined I learned from Floyd Toole.

What kind of speakers do you have?

Edit: I see you have Power Sound Audio. Ok, those likely don’t measure great on their own so Dirac could be improving the sound. Hard to say, but if it sounds better to you then I’ll take your word for it.

I have a few PSA subs. They’re great!

 

[MoreWatts]

Let me edit and update the "as I understand it" sentence I wrote originally. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I understand it, the anechoic EQ smooths the speaker imperfections that show up in anechoic measurements, across the entire frequency range. Then, room correction is done with a measurement mic in room, usually limited to below the Schroeder frequency. And, finally, manual EQ can be applied to suit personal tastes, across whatever frequencies the listener prefers.

Some active speakers have the anechoic EQ programmed and stored in the speaker itself. This is not possible with passives, so the anechoic EQ info is stored and applied by the processor.

JBL/Arcam could guarantee improved processor/receiver sales if they included anechoic EQ info for the PerformaBe, Performa3 and Concerta2 speakers lines. Alotta folks love these speakers, and see no real reason to change. Taking their legacy speakers up another notch, however, would tempt a lot of owners.

 

[Imakeller]

Are you positive it sounds better? Because these points I’ve outlined I learned from Floyd Toole.

What kind of speakers do you have?

Edit: I see you have Power Sound Audio. Ok, those likely don’t measure great on their own so Dirac could be improving the sound. Hard to say, but if it sounds better to you then I’ll take your word for it.

I have a few PSA subs. They’re great!

Dirac ART focuses 20 to 150Hz and core DLBC takes over from there to capture full range. I wouldn’t knee-cap Dirac’s FR application. Sounds wonderful! Have you tried Dirac ART or DLBC? Dirac improves the in-room performance of virtually all speakers IMHO, not just those that “don’t measure great on their own” as you seem to suggest. What is your system configuration? My current configuration is below. I have been unable to update my ASR profile due to admin globally locking edits to combat spam issues. The 3-way PSA MTM212’s have been Klippel optimized with the upgraded crossover to take full advantage of the big B&C DCX464 coaxial CD and measure very well on their own.

Subs:

• 4 x PSA S42-IPAL (each is dual-opposed 21” configuration) in USA satin finish, powered by two SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT-R rack-mount amplifiers (6K WPC, 220v) (Blue Jeans LC-1 RCA, Jensen ISO-MAX SUB-1RR, SVS SoundPath Isolation feet)

Speakers:

• Revel Última2 Salon2 = FL, FR
• PSA MTM212-M = SBL, C, SBR (on JBL JS-150 speaker stands with SVS SoundPath Isolation Feet);
• JBL Professional SCS12 = FHL, CH, FHR, RHL, RHR
• PSA MT-110SR-M = SL, SR
• JBL Studio 6 88LCR in-walls = FWL, FWR
• JBL Professional Control 322C = TML, TMR, TS/VoG
• Speaker cable = Belden Brilliance 1311A 12AWG

Configuration:

• 9 base/ear layer speakers; 4 subs; 5 heights; 3 tops

 

[tineared]

Since all of this info is such a major departure from Revel's previous product lines, for me it raises more questions than it answers.
I wonder if this "optional" software equalization is designed to smooth out deficiencies in the new design compromises.

 

[Buckchester]

Dirac ART focuses 20 to 150Hz and core DLBC takes over from there to capture full range. I wouldn’t knee-cap Dirac’s FR application. Sounds wonderful! Have you tried Dirac ART or DLBC? Dirac improves the in-room performance of virtually all speakers IMHO, not just those that “don’t measure great on their own” as you seem to suggest. What is your system configuration? My current configuration is below. I have been unable to update my ASR profile due to admin globally locking edits to combat spam issues. The 3-way PSA MTM212’s have been Klippel optimized with the upgraded crossover to take full advantage of the big B&C DCX464 coaxial CD and measure very well on their own.

Subs:

• 4 x PSA S42-IPAL (each is dual-opposed 21” configuration) in USA satin finish, powered by two SpeakerPower SP2-12000-HT-R rack-mount amplifiers (6K WPC, 220v) (Blue Jeans LC-1 RCA, Jensen ISO-MAX SUB-1RR, SVS SoundPath Isolation feet)

Speakers:

• Revel Última2 Salon2 = FL, FR
• PSA MTM212-M = SBL, C, SBR (on JBL JS-150 speaker stands with SVS SoundPath Isolation Feet);
• JBL Professional SCS12 = FHL, CH, FHR, RHL, RHR
• PSA MT-110SR-M = SL, SR
• JBL Studio 6 88LCR in-walls = FWL, FWR
• JBL Professional Control 322C = TML, TMR, TS/VoG
• Speaker cable = Belden Brilliance 1311A 12AWG

Configuration:

• 9 base/ear layer speakers; 4 subs; 5 heights; 3 tops

If you are using Salon 2s as your mains, you should definitely not EQ them above the room transition frequency.

Do you have anechoic measurements for those PSA MTM212s? I haven’t seen any. All I’ve seen is Erin’s measurements of the 110s, which did not measure all that well.