New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

[wine_junkie]

I've had a few discussions with Floyd and Sean about the top end of the Salon2. They both agree that it's due to the curved, diffraction reducing cabinet. With the F328Be there is more that sense of the sound coming from the front of the speaker, where with the Salon2 the sound almost seems to "float."

After years and years of doing side by side level matched speaker listening sessions (sometimes blind, sometimes not), we've discovered that one design may not perfectly complement one recording vs. another. For example, Revel speakers tend to have a wide open, spacious sound. With the Salon2, that's taken to a whole other level. Strings in particular sound wide open and "silky." But brass and percussion sound more "diffuse." If we play the same recording on a JBL or a Perlisten, we lose some of that wide open silkiness BUT we gain more of a sense of realism for close mic'd brass and percussion (for example).

Still, the Salon2 has been the best "all around speaker" I've ever heard. The F328Be is terrific, has even better dynamics and "detail," but that openness at the top end isn't quite there.

In our demo system we can switch instantly between the Revel F328Be and the JBL SCL2, and depending on the recording, I may prefer one or the other. Same is true of the Perlisten S7t, though I can't do instantaneous level matched switching with them. Since I listen to a lot of orchestral music, the Perlisten is a hard sell for me because you end up with string sections that literally sound 3" wide. But clarity and detail are off the charts.

Thank you for the reply! So you’re saying I’m screwed? Would you mind pointing me to desktop speakers or pro speakers (Genelec, Neuman 150’s) or another bookshelf that has that crystalline airy sweetness of the Ultima 2 series? I again appreciate the time and if I have to I will chase the Salon 2’s down at some point but until then…also interested to hear how the Performa4’s are

 

[kyuu]

Within the Revel lineup there's an audible difference though. The models beryllium tweeters sound significantly different to the rest of their lineup. But it's only really noticeable if you listen to classical chamber performances on modern recordings. For people who listen to pop/rock music the Concerta2 series are perfect.

Ah right, so now we don't just need Golden Ears to hear these magical differences but we have to be listening to the Golden Genre as well.

 

[Imakeller]

Interesting, thanks. All else being equal, I’m willing to bet the true audible differences of beryllium are largely negligible anyways. If you had two identical speakers, one with a beryllium tweeter and another with a well designed but much less expensive material, I’m quite skeptical that there would be a meaningful statistical difference in a properly-run double blind test. Then again, I’ve never heard a beryllium speaker so what do I know…

Speakers are THE component, by far, where we can reliably select our perception of “best” in grouped blind testing. I’d also go so far as to say that speakers are the most important component in a system, and rank the room itself as #2.

You make an interesting point. Be speakers stack up well against other high performing speakers, but could you tell the difference between “identical” speakers using different tweeters (Ti dome, fabric dome, compression driver, ribbon, AMT, etc.) in double-blind testing? That would be fun! I think favorites would emerge and Be would be “up there.”

 

[Buckchester]

Speakers are THE component, by far, where we can reliably select our perception of “best” in grouped blind testing. I’d also go so far as to say that speakers are the most important component in a system, and rank the room itself as #2.

You make an interesting point. Be speakers stack up well against other high performing speakers, but could you tell the difference between “identical” speakers using different tweeters (Ti dome, fabric dome, compression driver, ribbon, AMT, etc.) in double-blind testing? That would be fun! I think favorites would emerge and Be would be “up there.”

I think there are probably more distinct differences between different types of tweeters, e.g. dome, ribbon, horn. My thinking had more to do with comparing the same type of dome but made out of different materials. That, I would think, would be difficult to perceive. Especially between two well designed hard dome tweeters.

 

[Rex Anderson]

Within the Revel lineup there's an audible difference though. The models beryllium tweeters sound significantly different to the rest of their lineup. But it's only really noticeable if you listen to classical chamber performances on modern recordings. For people who listen to pop/rock music the Concerta2 series are perfect.

That's certainly not my experience. I recorded classical and all kinds of other music (rock, pop, jazz, gospel, etc) for a living for over 30 years. I have Revel F328Be and F208. I can tell the difference in the sound quality of the tweeters on all kinds of music. Performa3 sounds better than Concerta2, F328Be sounds better than most of the hundreds of speakers I've heard.

 

[John Schuermann]

Thank you for the reply! So you’re saying I’m screwed? Would you mind pointing me to desktop speakers or pro speakers (Genelec, Neuman 150’s) or another bookshelf that has that crystalline airy sweetness of the Ultima 2 series? I again appreciate the time and if I have to I will chase the Salon 2’s down at some point but until then…also interested to hear how the Performa4’s are

I haven't heard those speakers so can't really narrow it down.

What you need to find is a speaker with the neutral response of the Salon2 (and Studio2, etc.) and with a curved, diffraction reducing cabinet. B&W designs do a great job of getting rid of diffraction but have all kinds of other problems that I'm sure have been well discussed on this board.

The other thing you need to find is the kind of wide dispersion the Salon2 demonstrated. That's been the problem with KEF and Perlisten designs - narrow dispersion limits spaciousness. But you pick up other benefits.

My main point is that I've never heard one speaker that's "perfect" for every single recording since recording techniques vary so wildly. I've kinda landed on Revel (at least based on our testing so far) as the brand seems to cover the most bases - pretty much everything sounds good through it, though I might prefer a JBL or a Perlisten for certain recordings.

I'm anxious to listen to the new Perlisten A series as the new waveguide may "open things up" a bit. We got demo models last week but haven't set them up yet.

We have people fly out all the time to sit and listen to Revel vs. Perlisten vs. JBL. They all sit in the sweet spot and agonize, lol. We also have an open invitation for people to bring their own speakers to compare. So far we've had close to a dozen takers.

 

[NanoGuidingStar]

You must be living under a rock. Screws causes diffraction! See how KEF is doing. Revel is finally able to figure it out. Great I would say

For this topic, a well-known recent example from an emerging brand can serve as a useful reference. The SB Acoustics woofer used in the AsciLab C6B. C6B was originally presented without a grille when it was first launched. To avoid the visible bolts affecting the front aesthetics, they used a layer of surround (I’m not entirely sure what the correct term is) to cover them.

Later on, many users expressed a desire for a grille, so they introduced an optional grille as an accessory. However, users must install it themselves. During installation, the surrounding layer must first be removed, after which the magnetic grille can be aligned and attached to the bolts for fixation.

 

[dogmamann]

For this topic, a well-known recent example from an emerging brand can serve as a useful reference. The SB Acoustics woofer used in the AsciLab C6B. C6B was originally presented without a grille when it was first launched. To avoid the visible bolts affecting the front aesthetics, they used a layer of surround (I’m not entirely sure what the correct term is) to cover them.
View attachment 531882

Later on, many users expressed a desire for a grille, so they introduced an optional grille as an accessory. However, users must install it themselves. During installation, the surrounding layer must first be removed, after which the magnetic grille can be aligned and attached to the bolts for fixation.
View attachment 531885View attachment 531883
View attachment 531884View attachment 531886

forwoofers it may not matter but tweeters and mods the grills or bolts affects the sound

 

[EJ3]

forwoofers it may not matter but tweeters and mods the grills or bolts affects the sound

But also prevents damage from pets and small children. For some, the choice is a grill cover or a broken speaker.
For me, I usually just prefer the aesthetics of having a grill. Should I ever be immobilized, then I'll try it without the grill.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Within the Revel lineup there's an audible difference though. The models beryllium tweeters sound significantly different to the rest of their lineup. But it's only really noticeable if you listen to classical chamber performances on modern recordings. For people who listen to pop/rock music the Concerta2 series are perfect.

There are vast engineering differences between the speakers. Revel have redesigned the waveguide between Concerta2, Performa and PerformaBe. The Concerta 2 are 2.5-way speakers. It isn't all down to beryllium because you can't compare a like-for-like speakers with and without that tweeter material.

 

[Mort]

Within the Revel lineup there's an audible difference though. The models beryllium tweeters sound significantly different to the rest of their lineup. But it's only really noticeable if you listen to classical chamber performances on modern recordings. For people who listen to pop/rock music the Concerta2 series are perfect.

I coated my ear in beryllium and it made yacht rock sound good!

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Ah right, so now we don't just need Golden Ears to hear these magical differences but we have to be listening to the Golden Genre as well.

You don't need golden ears, if you listen to recordings of real music on acoustic instruments the extra detail from the beryllium tweeters is noticeable. But for most young people these days who are listening to heavy metal and electronics there's no need upgrade as Concerta2 are more than enough for those genres.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

That's certainly not my experience. I recorded classical and all kinds of other music (rock, pop, jazz, gospel, etc) for a living for over 30 years. I have Revel F328Be and F208. I can tell the difference in the sound quality of the tweeters on all kinds of music. Performa3 sounds better than Concerta2, F328Be sounds better than most of the hundreds of speakers I've heard.

PerformaBe definitely gives more detail which you notice most when you listen to modern recordings of acoustic instruments, it's especially noticeable in classical chamber music.

 

[John Schuermann]

I'm not sure how much of that is the beryllium itself vs. the improved waveguide and motor systems that drive the tweeter (vs. Performa3).

 

[kyuu]

I'm not sure how much of that is the beryllium itself vs. the improved waveguide and motor systems that drive the tweeter (vs. Performa3).

I see no appreciable difference in frequency response, distortion, or directivity between the Performa3-series and the PerformaBe-series to support the notion that there's any audible difference in the treble performance. I doubt that this assertion would survive a double-blind test.

In general, claims of "detail" generally boil down to the treble just being hotter and/or a shallower in-room slope. If you want more "detail", just dial in a high-shelf boost in your EQ.

 

[John Schuermann]

I see no appreciable difference in frequency response, distortion, or directivity between the Performa3-series and the PerformaBe-series to support the notion that there's any audible difference in the treble performance. I doubt that this assertion would survive a double-blind test.

In general, claims of "detail" generally boil down to the treble just being hotter and/or a shallower in-room slope. If you want more "detail", just dial in a high-shelf boost in your EQ.

We did a side by side level matched comparison between the Revel F208 and the F226Be and there was a considerable difference in detail and transparency at the top end, with the F226Be having a distinct advantage. In comparison the F208 sounded a little "muddled." I just am unsure where to place the "credit" for the better performance, though, since all the internals (and waveguide) were upgraded for the Be series.

This test wasn't as rigorous as our double blinds, but I stand by the results:

HOW TO PROPERLY COMPARE SPEAKERS - A Controlled "Shootout" of New Speaker Models from Revel and JBL

NOTE - If you are looking for the results of our much larger 2023 Double Blind Speaker Shootout, click HERE.Results of a Controlled Shootout between JBL HDI3800, Revel F226BE, JBL L100, and Revel F208 SpeakersNOTE - If you are looking for the results of our much larger 2023 Double Blind Speaker...

www.thescreeningroomav.com

 

[Lsc]

I see no appreciable difference in frequency response, distortion, or directivity between the Performa3-series and the PerformaBe-series to support the notion that there's any audible difference in the treble performance. I doubt that this assertion would survive a double-blind test.

In general, claims of "detail" generally boil down to the treble just being hotter and/or a shallower in-room slope. If you want more "detail", just dial in a high-shelf boost in your EQ.

At what point are you going to actually listen to the speakers and participate in the double blind test to confirm your assertion?

This is the other side that I find fascinating about ASR. People claiming things like the expensive, hard to get beryllium material doesn’t make a difference without actually having any experience ie listening experience. This hobby is all about the listening (at least it should be)…believe it or not, that’s fun part. I listen to my salon2 with beryllium tweeters when I’m in my family room, then when I go to my man cave, I listen to my old Revel M12 with the aluminum tweeters (F12 finally bit the dust), and I’m enjoying music on both systems. I even enjoy listening to music on my $hitty basement rec room setup for my boys that has 30 year old Definitive technology speakers with the soft dome tweeters using a cheap Sony receiver.

I’m not a beryllium tweeters snob. But the salon2 was my end game speaker and it happens to have it and is the best sounding speaker that I have and is better than my M12 or the Def techs or the Klipsch Forte II that’s in my office as museum decorations. In the end, the magnitude of the difference is based on the listener and is very subjective. Taylor Swift sounds like Taylor Swift in all of the systems..and yes I listen to Taylor on occasion.

 

[Everett T]

I'm not sure how much of that is the beryllium itself vs. the improved waveguide and motor systems that drive the tweeter (vs. Performa3).

I go back and forth between my Satori beryllium dome (neo magnet) and RAAL 70-20 as my favorite tweeters of my current speakers. Both are excellent to my ears and with my musical taste. I really want to try the new Purifi but I'm not able to invest the time for another speaker project just yet.

As for the differences between the Revel lines, I really preferred the lower treble of the Be.

 

[John Schuermann]

I see no appreciable difference in frequency response, distortion, or directivity between the Performa3-series and the PerformaBe-series to support the notion that there's any audible difference in the treble performance. I doubt that this assertion would survive a double-blind test.

In general, claims of "detail" generally boil down to the treble just being hotter and/or a shallower in-room slope. If you want more "detail", just dial in a high-shelf boost in your EQ.

The PerformaBe were extensively evaluated vs. "standard" Performa3 models during double blind testing at Harman. Kevin Voecks and Mark Glazer have both attested to this fact.

As you might know, Revel does not release a new version of a product until it can be demonstrated to be audibly superior to the previous generation product during double blind listening sessions. This is a major reason why there are so many years between product releases.

As you might also know, the F228Be did extremely well against the Salon2 during these sessions, with Kal Rubinson *almost* calling it a draw. (He ended up slightly preferring the Salon2.)

 

[Lsc]

The PerformaBe were extensively evaluated vs. "standard" Performa3 models during double blind testing at Harman. Kevin Voecks and Mark Glazer have both attested to this fact.

As you might know, Revel does not release a new version of a product until it can be demonstrated to be audibly superior to the previous generation product during double blind listening sessions. This is a major reason why there are so many years between product releases.

As you might also know, the F228Be did extremely well against the Salon2 during these sessions, with Kal Rubinson *almost* calling it a draw. (He ended up slightly preferring the Salon2.)

I can attest to the F228Be vs the Salon2 since I had them at the same time for a little while. I was shocked at how good the F228Be sounded and how close it was to the salon2. There were more similarities between them vs differences. In the end especially with a higher powered amp the salon2 start to pull away especially the low bass there is no comparison.

I do contest the release timeframe statement though. I think Revel did a horrible job at marketing and growing brand awareness. What a mess. And now the Performa4 are being released under the Arcam brand in Europe? Future isn’t looking too good for Revel.