New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

[John Schuermann]

I can understand the needs of different people. It’s just that when you don’t give your existing customers a path for them to buy the newer version, they will end up shopping elsewhere. My buddy and I both bought the C208 back in 2013 and never considered the C205. He actually had his console custom modified to fit the C208.

What we need is for thousands of people to be willing to make those kinds of decisions / modifications, and then the A/V world would be a happier place.

 

[Lsc]

Just a few thoughts / clarifications:

Box speakers don't sell well in general anymore. The trend started about 20 years ago and it has only accelerated in the last 5 years or so. So the market for a large center - which was already small - has shrunk further. I don't know how much we should complain when a manufacturer doesn't invest in a category that's rapidly shrinking, no matter how much we may wish it were otherwise. I'd be really curious to know how well the bigger centers from other manufacturers are selling. Not at all well, I'd expect.

Toole and Olive did general research for Harman, not for Revel. Look at the previous edition of Floyd's book - what's on the cover and featured in the book? The JBL M2. Floyd was on the fence about Salon2s or M2s for his home remodel; I was honored that he waited for the results of our blind shootout between the two before he made his choice.

As far as R&D, Harman round robins the R&D budget to their various luxury brands. One year it will be Revel, the next year Synthesis, then Mark Levinson, etc. Sadly it's true that Revel did not make any kind of dent into the Japanese and European markets - it's basically a U.S. brand. Hence the Arcam rebrand for Europe. If it does well there, expect more investments into the products. Personally, I've been pushing for an Ultima3 line, even if market realities mean that it will be a niche product and would likely be at a true premium price point (one of the realities Harman dealt with was the perception that the Salon2 was too "cheap" to be considered seriously, so there was talk of a six figure high end Harman "statement" speaker as a response).

RE: KEF. I wish they'd participate in one of our blind shootouts. During previous double blinds at the MLL they were one of very few speakers that didn't do as well as the Spinoramas would have predicted. Turned out the the most likely reason was IM distortion and a perceived lack of openness, both artifacts of putting the tweeter at the bottom of the woofer (this limits dispersion and of course means that the woofer - now the waveguide for the tweeter - is always in motion). To be fair, this was a two way design so more susceptible to those problems.

Following on from the above, Floyd himself went speaker shopping a couple of years ago for his new place up in Canada and auditioned everything he could find. He of course targeted those models with good measurements. One of the models he auditioned was the Blade2, and he ended up writing the equivalent of a mini white paper on the experience. He was really impressed for the most part but noticed some off-axis problems. He imagined the R5 Meta would actually perform better. I have the "white paper" but I don't feel comfortable sharing it publicly; if interested reach out to me privately. Based on that, I would love to get a R5 Meta in here for some comparative listening. Both Sean and Floyd have the utmost respect for the engineers at KEF. Floyd eventually ended up with F226Bes.

I've often wondered myself who would "carry the torch" forward in terms of the general sound reproduction research that Floyd pioneered. I don't have a good answer there, because such an entity would ideally have access to the same kind of massive facilities and almost unlimited budget that Floyd had access to at Harman. I don't see who that would be. Harman still has those resources; it's more a matter of how they are allocated. JBL Pro sure seems to be plowing ahead and absorbing a good chunk of them. If Arcam and Revel are successful with the new models, the whole game could change again.

So here's the Catch22 as I see it - right now only boutique brands are focusing on creating the type of speakers (particularly center speakers) people here are clamoring for. But because the market for those is extremely limited, it also means they are never going to have the funds to really invest in the type of large scale research that Harman did. And those with the resources are not going to chase extremely tiny market opportunities.

i didn’t realize that box speakers are like sedans now. If I were a betting man, I’d venture to guess the most popular speaker type is the sound bar.

And Revel gave its owners an even less attractive option.

 

[John Schuermann]

i didn’t realize that box speakers are like sedans now. If I were a betting man, I’d venture to guess the most popular speaker type is the sound bar.

And Revel gave its owners an even less attractive option.

Kinda. We just had a private Trinnov training session with some of the principals there. What's the most common speaker type going into home theaters? In-walls. That's why we did in-walls in our last double blind speaker shootout. This lines up exactly with our own experience of designing and installing home theaters all over the country, plus those of our reps.

The two channel box speaker market is dying slowly as the customer base ages out. Young people in general are just not interested in having big boxes in their rooms. This is a big enough concern that there have been several groups formed in the industry to "attack" this problem. Of course, where can young people even go to audition decent two channel setups, to see what they are missing out on?

Soundbars are of course the biggest sellers, but larger scale home theater sales are still doing ok (much better than two channel, that's for sure). But what's the market trend? Multi-purpose rooms, not necessarily dedicated home theaters. And what usually goes into those? In-walls. Again, people don't generally want 7 box speakers taking up space in their family rooms.

In this regard, Harman is actually doing quite well, in that they have numerous top-performing in-wall speakers - the Revel Bes and the whole Synthesis lineup.

 

[quattro98]

I’d say some skepticism is healthy on this point. As long as Revel keeps providing comprehensive measurements, it should keep them honest.

I don't think Revel has measurements on their public website. Perlisten and KEF both provide more information.

 

[TurtlePaul]

i didn’t realize that box speakers are like sedans now. If I were a betting man, I’d venture to guess the most popular speaker type is the sound bar.

I suspect that smart speakers (e.g. Amazon Echo/Alexa) give them a run for their money.

 

[amirm]

Kinda. We just had a private Trinnov training session with some of the principals there. What's the most common speaker type going into home theaters? In-walls. That's why we did in-walls in our last double blind speaker shootout. This lines up exactly with our own experience of designing and installing home theaters all over the country, plus those of our reps.

That's only specific to that market: custom integration. No retail customer wants to go and tear down into their walls, run cables, etc. To the extent they hire professional and pay a lot of money for the system, sure, they will have them hidden in walls. We see the same thing at Madrona Digital and certainly so for our high-net worth individuals. There, it has been standard practice for us for some 15+ years.

The retail market is still doing its thing. Why else would Harman introduce this new entire line if it were a dying breed? I venture to guess that the market size for enthusiasts buying box speakers for theaters is far, far bigger than the custom market. This is because entry into this domain is so low compared to hiring people to build stuff into the home.

Two channel market is also bigger than full home theater by far. Market for bookshelf systems is quite large as people can deploy good sounding systems with a couple of them and a modern integrated electronics/streamer to go with them.

From my admittedly limited view into retail speaker business, the sales of Ascilab speakers has been quite strong. And tilted sharply toward more expensive products. So among enthusiasts, which Revel catered to, the market is there and deserves to have good products for it.

Yes, there was a time that the custom channel also moved fair amount of box speakers and that has come and gone. In-wall speakers provide much healthier margin motivating the channel to push them even more. But retail business is distinct with its own needs and wants.

 

[kyuu]

That's only specific to that market: custom integration. No retail customer wants to go and tear down into their walls, run cables, etc. To the extent they hire professional and pay a lot of money for the system, sure, they will have them hidden in walls. We see the same thing at Madrona Digital and certainly so for our high-net worth individuals. There, it has been standard practice for us for some 15+ years.

Even as someone who did install their own in-walls (but I'm used to running wire and associated work for my day job), I would agree the perspective as a custom-installer would definitely be skewed. Those who have the money to pay for a custom install would naturally gravitate toward in-walls when good options are available (or the installer heavily pushes them) since they don't have to do the work and they get a nice clean install. There's a large market of people who don't pay for custom installs who probably gravitate more toward traditional box speakers, although that market is likely getting eaten into quite a bit by Sonos, Apple, and other flavors of "smart" and "lifestyle" speakers and sound bars.

On the other hand, there is probably a large overlap in the market for people looking for high-end multichannel systems, where something like the Revel C426Be might normally be considered, and those who might choose to hire a custom installer and find the option to have the speaker in the wall more appealing over the ginormous box squashed under their TV. Luckily, there are in-wall options (like the Revel W228Be) where you're not really giving up any performance and in fact gaining some advantages with the flush/infinite baffle.

 

[John Schuermann]

That's only specific to that market: custom integration. No retail customer wants to go and tear down into their walls, run cables, etc. To the extent they hire professional and pay a lot of money for the system, sure, they will have them hidden in walls. We see the same thing at Madrona Digital and certainly so for our high-net worth individuals. There, it has been standard practice for us for some 15+ years.

The retail market is still doing its thing. Why else would Harman introduce this new entire line if it were a dying breed? I venture to guess that the market size for enthusiasts buying box speakers for theaters is far, far bigger than the custom market. This is because entry into this domain is so low compared to hiring people to build stuff into the home.

Two channel market is also bigger than full home theater by far. Market for bookshelf systems is quite large as people can deploy good sounding systems with a couple of them and a modern integrated electronics/streamer to go with them.

From my admittedly limited view into retail speaker business, the sales of Ascilab speakers has been quite strong. And tilted sharply toward more expensive products. So among enthusiasts, which Revel catered to, the market is there and deserves to have good products for it.

Yes, there was a time that the custom channel also moved fair amount of box speakers and that has come and gone. In-wall speakers provide much healthier margin motivating the channel to push them even more. But retail business is distinct with its own needs and wants.

What I'm hearing (oh how I hate that phrase!) is that box speaker sales are still way down for every manufacturer I talk to, across the board, compared to say 20 years ago. From a retail perspective as well, again, because young people simply aren't buying them. We essentially split the difference between retailer and custom installer - TSR is kind of a unique animal that way (which often frustrates our vendors, lol).

I tried to find some independent verification for any of this, because going by "what I'm hearing" isn't all that reliable. What I did find was some contradictory stats by Googling and trying the various AI engines. But it seems that both of us have a point - and that I somewhat overstated my case.

For whatever it's worth, this is what ChatGPT came back with (which is a pretty good summary, after checking the references):

Bookshelf and tower speakers are still selling—but not at the same mass-market levels as 20 years ago. They’ve followed the same shift as stereo systems, but with an important twist.

Overall: lower volume than the early 2000s​

Back then, speakers like these were standard household gear—almost every stereo or home theater setup required them.
Today:

• Fewer people build full component systems
• Many consumers use soundbars, headphones, or wireless speakers instead
• Even TVs often replace multi-speaker setups

So in terms of units sold to average households, bookshelf and tower speakers are down vs. their peak era.

But they haven’t declined as much as full stereo systems​

Here’s the key difference:

Speakers are more “future-proof” than other stereo components.

• A good pair can last 10–20+ years
• They still work perfectly with modern gear (streamers, TVs, PCs)
• They’re essential for home theater setups

Because of that, they didn’t collapse—they shifted markets instead.

What changed in how they’re used​

1. Bookshelf speakers → more popular than before (in some ways)​

They’ve actually adapted well to modern habits:

• Smaller size fits apartments and desks
• Often sold as powered speakers (no receiver needed)
  • Desktop audio
  • Turntables (vinyl revival)
  • TV upgrades without a full system

Examples of modern bookshelf speakers:

• Edifier R1280T Powered Bookshelf Speakers (entry-level, built-in amp)
• KEF LS50 Meta Bookshelf Speakers (high-end audiophile)

These are arguably more relevant today than 20 years ago, just in different use cases.

2. Tower (floorstanding) speakers → more niche​

Tower speakers still exist—but:

• Require space
• Require an amp/receiver
• Compete directly with soundbars for TV use

Examples:

• Klipsch R-600F Floor-Standing Speaker
• Bowers & Wilkins 603 S3 Floorstanding Speaker

These are now mostly bought by:

• Home theater enthusiasts
• Audiophiles
• People with dedicated listening rooms

So compared to 20 years ago, tower speakers have shrunk into a more specialized market.

Where the demand still comes from​

Strong segments today:​

• Home theater systems (5.1 / 7.1 setups still need speakers)
• Audiophile / hi-fi enthusiasts
• Vinyl & “serious listening” crowd
• ️ Desktop audio (bookshelf speakers especially)

Weak segments:​

• Casual listeners (moved to wireless / all-in-one)
• Budget buyers (soundbars dominate)

The real shift (this is the key insight)​

It’s not that people stopped buying speakers—it’s that:

Speakers used to be “default.” Now they’re “intentional.”

• 2005: You bought speakers because you had to
• 2025: You buy them because you care about sound

Bottom line​

• Bookshelf speakers:
  ✔ Still strong, even evolving (especially powered models)
  ✔ Used in more flexible, modern setups
• Tower speakers:
  Less common than before
  ✔ Still healthy in enthusiast/home theater niches

Overall: lower mass-market sales, but stable-to-growing enthusiast demand

 

[amirm]

• 2005: You bought speakers because you had to
• 2025: You buy them because you care about sound

Sometimes AI is smarter than it should be. That is definitely true.

 

[tineared]

I guess I'm multifaceted.
I have sound bars on all my tvs because tv speakers suck
But I still have high quality multichannel on my two big tvs in the living room and family room
I like to spread it around for the sake of the economy

 

[jhaider]

Chuckle all.you like, Perlisten has been honest with their data.

I don’t think you understood my post. Look at labels under the polar maps. Now look at the speakers. Do the labels on the polar maps look right to you?

Is there any other speaker company that is heavily investing in research today? Or we can say that the Toole era at Revel was a unicum in history?

Basic research? I think it’s an anomaly generally for a company to be doing that, and even more so to publish it. Pulling Drs. Toole and Olive from the NRC to, inter alia, continue their NRC work is unusual for a public company, or even a private one run by a passionate executive team with autonomy.

IIRC, other such efforts in this industry have been consortia centered at universities, such as the 1980s Eureka project involving the TU Denmark, KEF, and B&O.

But I would not be surprised if there’s a some research going on at, e.g., Apple and maybe Google, that’s not disclosed. Our gracious host likely knows something about how such efforts may work!

 

[dannut]

I don’t think you understood my post. Look at labels under the polar maps. Now look at the speakers. Do the labels on the polar maps look right to you?

I found it strange too, until zoomed in 500% - the graph starts at 1kHz and the pinching is the tweeter array at play above 2kHz. We don't see any lobing due to woofer array, because it's hidden from sight. The labels are 'correct' in the technical sense. But going out of your way to hide data? Marketing people...

 

[dannut]

I would say that most of the research is already done. Sans some frontier questions regarding envelopment and dynamic perception (GD and compression).

What is lacking is adhering to sound-first engineering principles instead of marketing driven solutions for multichannel. Case in point is Revel C245 - seems like an afterthought instead a cohesive lineup.

 

[Rex Anderson]

Well, that is kind. I am also not a fan of pushing it all the way. But 98dB is still quite a bit louder than most speakers can take without a proper bass management.

If you would to ask of my opinion, I would reduce the spread to 15dB. Still loud enough to make the point and probably more friendly to home setups.

I tested my F328Be's running full range (no subs) in my living room with an SPL meter at 12 feet. They hit 100 dB SPL (slow response/C weighting) before my ATI 4003 amp started clipping. I'm sure they could have played louder with more clean power. Most of the time I can play as loud as my ears can handle without needing more power. I pushed the amp to see how loud they would play before the clip light started flashing, it was much louder than my loudest listening sessions.

FWIW, I use a C208 for my center channel and F208's for surrounds. I wanted a C426Be, but it's just too wide compared to the C208. Voice 2 was a great center channel, I should have grabbed one before they disappeared.

I worked as a recording and live sound engineer for over 30 years. The last live sound gig I did several years ago was for a Christian rock band in a nice venue with a very good PA system. The system had great subs, so there was plenty of low end. I held the SPL at 96 dB max and everyone was happy including the tech director who agreed it should not go louder than that.

 

[Fjc20]

I’m looking for bookshelves I see the performa4 146 has anyone heard them?

 

[John Schuermann]

They haven't shipped yet. Will be getting them soon.

 

[wine_junkie]

They haven't shipped yet. Will be getting them soon.

Love your input and I concur with your findings. Talking to Sean about the Salon 2’s he agreed there was something special and not measurable about the top end. I listened to the Performa 3’s and while I enjoyed them they were neutral and revealing but kind of plain to me…in the sense they were accurate but didn’t have the truly special high end speaker touch. The Salon 2’s in Voecks house and M2’s at Harman were phenomenal. The Salon 2 especially. The M2 was the only horn loaded driver I have enjoyed listening to. Is there another speaker that you have heard with the Salon 2’s magic in the top end? Do I just need to find an Ultima 2 somehow? Thanks!

 

[Imakeller]

Love your input and I concur with your findings. Talking to Sean about the Salon 2’s he agreed there was something special and not measurable about the top end. I listened to the Performa 3’s and while I enjoyed them they were neutral and revealing but kind of plain to me…in the sense they were accurate but didn’t have the truly special high end speaker touch. The Salon 2’s in Voecks house and M2’s at Harman were phenomenal. The Salon 2 especially. The M2 was the only horn loaded driver I have enjoyed listening to. Is there another speaker that you have heard with the Salon 2’s magic in the top end? Do I just need to find an Ultima 2 somehow? Thanks!

John and others can give better replies because of hearing so many speakers in person, but I’ve heard that Revel F328Be’s compare well to the Salon2’s in the top end.

 

[dogmamann]

These are supposedly replacements for the Performa 3 series, not the Be series
But then again...

As per their video, screws screw up the sound. Performa 4 doesn’t have screws to screw up anything. Performa 4 must be better than be. be means nothing other than marketing BS. Beryllium?!! lol! Why would anyone need it!!

 

[dogmamann]

Honestly not the biggest fan of the trend of dust cap-less woofers with surrounds and screws hidden behind trim rings. Doesn't do it for me aesthetically but also seems like an extra step added to any repairs.

You must be living under a rock. Screws causes diffraction! See how KEF is doing. Revel is finally able to figure it out. Great I would say