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New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

What else they are going to do?
What John suggested, utilize the measurements to narrow the field to good/very good measuring, but give the final choices a listen. Rather than choosing purely on measurements alone. How does one choose if four speakers measure smoothly on/off axis, have similar bass extension, sensitivity, etc? Looks? :cool:
The business model is selling remote now. Using measurements will highly increase your chances of having a satisfying experience. I do agree the score itself needs work but it is good directionally.
Right, I'm agreeing, use measurements. But one should listen at some point (as John suggests above). Some companies do allow trials, Crutchfield etc.
FYI, this is the type of continued research we will no longer have from Harman. Better preference score, near vs far field listening, role of dispersion, etc. We got a lot to help us but there was more work to do....
I agree with you and that is unfortunate
 
Agreed - Perlisten is not known for value, but their S7t towers are some of the best, and priced accordingly. HT towers are great and great value. Who chooses what is individual play. I almost went Perlisten couple of years back, but then changed my mind as did not like the S center (and the price). Mixing ported towers with sealed center is a bit off. I have it in my second setup and not ideal.
Perlisten’s whole lineup shares the issue with Revel Perforna4 in that their center channels are not suitable for purpose. The big distinction is Revel fixes this in the upgrade PerformaBe line, and Perlisten maintains the same lowly toppled MTM, albeit with a slightly lower than typical crossover point, in their entire lineup.

Now, of course one should be targeting identical LCR. A different center (even one that’s a good speaker in its own right) is no different conceptually from different L and R. I assume with Perlisten one can buy three standmounts or towers to do it right, though none of their speakers I’ve heard to date have frankly impressed me enough to ask*.

*that’s not to say that they’re bad—except the centers. Rather, interpret that to mean their particular set of vertical directivity design goals generally don’t align with my preferences, and in any event I do not find them aesthetically appealing.
 
Agreed - Perlisten is not known for value, but their S7t towers are some of the best, and priced accordingly. HT towers are great and great value. Who chooses what is individual play. I almost went Perlisten couple of years back, but then changed my mind as did not like the S center (and the price). Mixing ported towers with sealed center is a bit off. I have it in my second setup and not ideal.
The S7t has both sealed and ported modes. You have to remove the bottom plate to plug the ports but they were designed for both modes.

The Revel center channels were all sealed until the C426Be. All Revel towers are ported so I don’t know how much of an issue this is. In my main room I have the Salon2/Voice2 and in my man cave I have the F12/C12. I am very happy that these centers are the “typical” Revel center channels. Same with when I had the F208/C208.

To your point, I listened to the S7t black edition and quad D8is subs at Axpona. The bass was excellent even in that huge room. The D8is is my new favorite subwoofer but they cost $22k+ each unfortunately. This was my favorite room in the show plus Lars and Eric are such hospitable hosts.

The Revel room played the typical elevator / smooth jazz music but the F346 did sound very refined from what I can tell. I’d expect this to be an improvement over the F208 but since they botched the center, I don’t see any performa3 owners who have the C208 upgrade to the performa4. Btw, I did get a chance to chat with Jim Garrett a little bit.
 
Perlisten’s whole lineup shares the issue with Revel Perforna4 in that their center channels are not suitable for purpose. The big distinction is Revel fixes this in the upgrade PerformaBe line, and Perlisten maintains the same lowly toppled MTM, albeit with a slightly lower than typical crossover point, in their entire lineup.

Now, of course one should be targeting identical LCR. A different center (even one that’s a good speaker in its own right) is no different conceptually from different L and R. I assume with Perlisten one can buy three standmounts or towers to do it right, though none of their speakers I’ve heard to date have frankly impressed me enough to ask*.

*that’s not to say that they’re bad—except the centers. Rather, interpret that to mean their particular set of vertical directivity design goals generally don’t align with my preferences, and in any event I do not find them aesthetically appealing.
The Perlisten S series center spins and directivity look good. Even the vertical isn't that bad.
 
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I believe that 90% of customers won’t even know the benefits of center speaker like WTMW or KEF. What they want is simply a low-profile center speaker that doesn’t block the flat-panel TV or projection screen. However, the increased height of WTMW discourages consumers, and this may explain why the industry, despite being aware of the problems with MTM, still mainly promotes MTM designs—commercial considerations take priority over performance.

For example, Audio First Design is currently developing their first center speaker, and the designer is also weighing the issue of WTMW’s height.

Ascilab Lab is also designing two center speakers. The first will be MTM , and I hope that under the guidance of Ascilab’s designers with acoustic engineering experience, they can create an MTM center with some improvement in comb filter effect. The second center speaker will be a WTMW design, using dual 8-inch woofers. Clearly, this one will be focused entirely on performance, without compromising for height or size constraints, targeting customers who have no concerns about speaker height.
 
I believe that 90% of customers won’t even know the benefits of center speaker like WTMW or KEF. What they want is simply a low-profile center speaker that doesn’t block the flat-panel TV or projection screen. However, the increased height of WTMW discourages consumers, and this may explain why the industry, despite being aware of the problems with MTM, still mainly promotes MTM designs—commercial considerations take priority over performance.

For example, Audio First Design is currently developing their first center speaker, and the designer is also weighing the issue of WTMW’s height.

Ascilab Lab is also designing two center speakers. The first will be MTM , and I hope that under the guidance of Ascilab’s designers with acoustic engineering experience, they can create an MTM center with some improvement in comb filter effect. The second center speaker will be a WTMW design, using dual 8-inch woofers. Clearly, this one will be focused entirely on performance, without compromising for height or size constraints, targeting customers who have no concerns about speaker height.

If MTM lobing and WTMW height are unacceptable, WC(oaxial)W is the only least compromise. Why not many more speaker makers than KEF make WCW center channels?
 

My point is anybody can like any reasonable designed speakers in their budget for any reason, but don't claim a specific speaker is vastly superior than it's competitors or imply it's the best in any specific characteristics which can be translated into measurements, and the measurements say it's not the best.
 
The Perlisten S series center spins and directivity look good. Even the horizontal isn't that bad.

I had to chuckle looking at the ad copy you posted.

Look at the speaker. Look at the polar maps. Tell us which one is horizontal and which one is vertical based on the geometry of the array.

Now look at the labels.
 
Some thoughts after going through this thread:

Ultima 2 vs PerformaBe: Not immediately apparent from the spinorama, as it represents averages of both horizontal and vertical planes. But as we can see in the NRC measurements the Salon2 in the horizontal plane has very wide and controlled directivity, less so with the PerformaBE series. Since the same tweeter/waveguide combination is being used in the rest of the Ultima2/Performa BE line I assume a trend here.

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RE anechoic EQ for Performa4: Good idea, although I thought anechoic EQ was already available in certain products for a variety of Harman products.
If I would have a say I would focus on introducing FIR procesing in higher end products and introduce phase linearization in addition to anechoic EQ.
While the merits of this can be argued for 2 channel reproduction, once you start combining speakers that are not identical you are introducing discrepancies that will severely affect how the system plays together as a whole. Anything not hard panned to a specific speaker will be affected by this trimbrally as the phantom images produced will no longer sum properly between different speakers.


RE Perlisten: An interesting product for sure. I've never understood why that tweeter is positioned so low, especially considering they are a vertical array which will limit vertical dispersion more than a single tweeter. I can imagine this sounding good for sweet spot listening, they don't look great if you also want to listen casually and perhaps walk around the house a bit.
 
I can imagine this sounding good for sweet spot listening, they don't look great if you also want to listen casually and perhaps walk around the house a bit.
Before the comma is something I rarely do. After the comma is something that I mostly do.
 
What else they are going to do? The business model is selling remote now. Using measurements will highly increase your chances of having a satisfying experience. I do agree the score itself needs work but it is good directionally.

FYI, this is the type of continued research we will no longer have from Harman. Better preference score, near vs far field listening, role of dispersion, etc. We got a lot to help us but there was more work to do....
Is there any other speaker company that is heavily investing in research today? Or we can say that the Toole era at Revel was a unicum in history?
I observe that many manufacturers are trying to deliver the design principles of Toole at lower prices, but no new design concepts are emerging, with some minor exceptions like cardioid
 
Is there any other speaker company that is heavily investing in research today? Or we can say that the Toole era at Revel was a unicum in history?
I observe that many manufacturers are trying to deliver the design principles of Toole at lower prices, but no new design concepts are emerging, with some minor exceptions like cardioid
Perlisten, KEF, Arendal, Paradigm, Dali, Dynaudio, etc. Samsung also has their audio Lab in LA, but it mainly focus on their soundbar, active speakers and earphone.

Or small company like AsciLab, Audio First Design and Philharmonic Audio.
 
Is there any other speaker company that is heavily investing in research today? Or we can say that the Toole era at Revel was a unicum in history?
I observe that many manufacturers are trying to deliver the design principles of Toole at lower prices, but no new design concepts are emerging, with some minor exceptions like cardioid
I would say that Purifi is heavily investing in research, but let's see if they even release a fully integrated speaker as a finished product with their drivers and perhaps their own electronics.

Cutting edge speaker development is also being done in servo feedback, current drive and cardioid speakers.
 
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Is there any other speaker company that is heavily investing in research today? Or we can say that the Toole era at Revel was a unicum in history?
I observe that many manufacturers are trying to deliver the design principles of Toole at lower prices, but no new design concepts are emerging, with some minor exceptions like cardioid
This is an interesting thought given Revel’s short run and mild success in the US. I just learned recently that Revel is a US (and China) specific brand that the rest of the world are not very familiar. So much so that Harman (well now Samsung) decided to release the latest Performa4 speakers under the Arcam brand in Europe.

They may have been critically acclaimed years ago but imho they are no longer the can’t miss brand especially given their recent decision to not develop a 3-way center channel that was their hallmark. How much research went into a MTM center? They previously had a philosophy that their center channel had to be capable enough to keep up with their tower main speakers.

I feel like my beloved Revel is fast becoming a has been which just means that if I need new speakers, I’ll look elsewhere - and there are plenty of brands to choose from.
 
They may have been critically acclaimed years ago but imho they are no longer the can’t miss brand especially given their recent decision to not develop a 3-way center channel that was their hallmark. How much research went into a MTM center? They previously had a philosophy that their center channel had to be capable enough to keep up with their tower main speakers.
The issue is the reality that nobody buys them. As much as ASR and Erin and everybody says not to buy a two-way center, three-way centers don't sell. I think that there are home theater people who want the center to get out of the way of the screen and then there are music people who don't use a center at all. I personally own an expensive system but don't have a center at all.
 
I had to chuckle looking at the ad copy you posted.

Look at the speaker. Look at the polar maps. Tell us which one is horizontal and which one is vertical based on the geometry of the array.

Now look at the labels.
Chuckle all.you like, Perlisten has been honest with their data. I wrote vertically when I meant horizontally (late post for me) and I get the short comings of a vertical center, which is why I've never owned one, I just stated as far as this type of center channel goes, it's not horrible. :)
 
The issue is the reality that nobody buys them. As much as ASR and Erin and everybody says not to buy a two-way center, three-way centers don't sell. I think that there are home theater people who want the center to get out of the way of the screen and then there are music people who don't use a center at all. I personally own an expensive system but don't have a center at all.
I can understand the needs of different people. It’s just that when you don’t give your existing customers a path for them to buy the newer version, they will end up shopping elsewhere. My buddy and I both bought the C208 back in 2013 and never considered the C205. He actually had his console custom modified to fit the C208.
 
Just a few thoughts / clarifications:

Box speakers don't sell well in general anymore. The trend started about 20 years ago and it has only accelerated in the last 5 years or so. So the market for a large center - which was already small - has shrunk further. I don't know how much we should complain when a manufacturer doesn't invest in a category that's rapidly shrinking, no matter how much we may wish it were otherwise. I'd be really curious to know how well the bigger centers from other manufacturers are selling. Not at all well, I'd expect.

Toole and Olive did general research for Harman, not for Revel. Look at the previous edition of Floyd's book - what's on the cover and featured in the book? The JBL M2. Floyd was on the fence about Salon2s or M2s for his home remodel; I was honored that he waited for the results of our blind shootout between the two before he made his choice. :)

As far as R&D, Harman round robins the R&D budget to their various luxury brands. One year it will be Revel, the next year Synthesis, then Mark Levinson, etc. Sadly it's true that Revel did not make any kind of dent into the Japanese and European markets - it's basically a U.S. brand. Hence the Arcam rebrand for Europe. If it does well there, expect more investments into the products. Personally, I've been pushing for an Ultima3 line, even if market realities mean that it will be a niche product and would likely be at a true premium price point (one of the realities Harman dealt with was the perception that the Salon2 was too "cheap" to be considered seriously, so there was talk of a six figure high end Harman "statement" speaker as a response).

RE: KEF. I wish they'd participate in one of our blind shootouts. During previous double blinds at the MLL they were one of very few speakers that didn't do as well as the Spinoramas would have predicted. Turned out the the most likely reason was IM distortion and a perceived lack of openness, both artifacts of putting the tweeter at the bottom of the woofer (this limits dispersion and of course means that the woofer - now the waveguide for the tweeter - is always in motion). To be fair, this was a two way design so more susceptible to those problems.

Following on from the above, Floyd himself went speaker shopping a couple of years ago for his new place up in Canada and auditioned everything he could find. He of course targeted those models with good measurements. One of the models he auditioned was the Blade1, and he ended up writing the equivalent of a mini white paper on the experience. He was really impressed for the most part but noticed some off-axis problems. He imagined the R5 Meta would actually perform better. I have the "white paper" but I don't feel comfortable sharing it publicly; if interested reach out to me privately. Based on that, I would love to get a R5 Meta in here for some comparative listening. Both Sean and Floyd have the utmost respect for the engineers at KEF. Floyd eventually ended up with F226Bes.

I've often wondered myself who would "carry the torch" forward in terms of the general sound reproduction research that Floyd pioneered. I don't have a good answer there, because such an entity would ideally have access to the same kind of massive facilities and almost unlimited budget that Floyd had access to at Harman. I don't see who that would be. Harman still has those resources; it's more a matter of how they are allocated. JBL Pro sure seems to be plowing ahead and absorbing a good chunk of them. If Arcam and Revel are successful with the new models, the whole game could change again.

So here's the Catch22 as I see it - right now only boutique brands are focusing on creating the type of speakers (particularly center speakers) people here are clamoring for. But because the market for those is extremely limited, it also means they are never going to have the funds to really invest in the type of large scale research that Harman did. And those with the resources are not going to chase extremely tiny market opportunities.
 
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