New Revel Performa4 / Arcam Radia speaker line-up -- with Anechoic EQ

[TurtlePaul]

I'm not sure why Revels are regarded as having particularly wide dispersion. Here are the horizontal distribution plots for the AsciLab C6B, Revel M106, and Philharmonic BMR bookshelf speakers:

The Revel does have a wider dispersion than the Ascilabs. They also have wider dispersion that Kef speakers. The ribbon tweeter in the BMR is noted for having a super wide dispersion. That is also considered a very wide speaker - but it has very narrow directivity in the vertical plane.

 

[Buckchester]

Neither the Revel F328Be or the Perlisten have issues playing at high volume levels with low distortion. However, if you wish to maintain healthy hearing so you can enjoy music for a lifetime, I would recommend avoiding high volume conditions.

Yeah, but I’ve read from Mathew Poes, he seems to know his stuff, that the Perlisten can do dynamic peaks more effortlessly with less distortion and also that we often underestimate how quickly speakers compress at reference peaks.

I own Revel f208s and I don’t feel thy are lacking in this regard, but I’m just curious about this. It seems that most would agree either the Perlisten or the 328bes should provide ample enough volume with little distortion in most rooms for most people, without risking your hearing.

 

[Vergiliusma]

I'm not sure why Revels are regarded as having particularly wide dispersion. Here are the horizontal distribution plots for the AsciLab C6B, Revel M106, and Philharmonic BMR bookshelf speakers:

Did you not look at the contour plots you posted?

Keep in mind that through most of the midrange, the axial response and the reflections both affect overall perception, and as the frequencies increase, it begins to transition to axial dominance. Where that transition occurs depends on the overall directivity,

Obviously, with the BMR the transition occurs higher.

 

[amper42]

Yeah, but I’ve read from Mathew Poes, he seems to know his stuff, that the Perlisten can do dynamic peaks more effortlessly with less distortion and also that we often underestimate how quickly speakers compress at reference peaks.

I own Revel f208s and I don’t feel thy are lacking in this regard, but I’m just curious about this. It seems that most would agree either the Perlisten or the 328bes should provide ample enough volume with little distortion in most rooms for most people, without risking your hearing.

It's really a non-issue. If you are happy with F208 stay with them. The Revel wide dispersion is superior to my ears. It's an individual preference. Once you are satisfied with your sound, it doesn't make a lot of sense to change based on someone else's post.

 

[NanoGuidingStar]

measurement for the new speakers

 

[MarkS]

Yeah, but I’ve read from [somebody] that the Perlisten can do dynamic peaks more effortlessly with less distortion and also that we often underestimate how quickly speakers compress at reference peaks.

Are these claims backed by blind listening tests?

I'm quite dubious of the audibility of peak compression ...

 

[perceptionist]

Yeah, but I’ve read from Mathew Poes, he seems to know his stuff, that the Perlisten can do dynamic peaks more effortlessly with less distortion and also that we often underestimate how quickly speakers compress at reference peaks.

I own Revel f208s and I don’t feel thy are lacking in this regard, but I’m just curious about this. It seems that most would agree either the Perlisten or the 328bes should provide ample enough volume with little distortion in most rooms for most people, without risking your hearing.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/perlisten_s4b/

https://philharmonicaudio.com/pages/measurements/#ht-tower


The two critical plots are:


Harmonic Distortion at 96dB @ 1m--where does the distortion break -30dB?


For Perlisten S4B it's 60Hz to 70Hz, for Philharmonic Audio HT Tower it's 30Hz to 40Hz. HT Tower wins.
Dynamic Range (Instantaneous Compression Test) 102dB at 1 meter (purple)

HT Tower keeps in +-0.5 dB till 60Hz while S4B breaks -0.5 dB between 100Hz to 200Hz. HT tower still wins.


BTW S4B plus the stands cost almost twice as HT tower.

 

[Buckchester]

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/perlisten_s4b/

https://philharmonicaudio.com/pages/measurements/#ht-tower


The two critical plots are:


Harmonic Distortion at 96dB @ 1m--where does the distortion break -30dB?


For Perlisten S4B it's 60Hz to 70Hz, for Philharmonic Audio HT Tower it's 30Hz to 40Hz. HT Tower wins.
Dynamic Range (Instantaneous Compression Test) 102dB at 1 meter (purple)

HT Tower keeps in +-0.5 dB till 60Hz while S4B breaks -0.5 dB between 100Hz to 200Hz. HT tower still wins.


BTW S4B plus the stands cost almost twice as HT tower.

You’re comparing a bookshelf to a tower?

 

[Oddball]

You’re comparing a bookshelf to a tower?

Agreed - Perlisten is not known for value, but their S7t towers are some of the best, and priced accordingly. HT towers are great and great value. Who chooses what is individual play. I almost went Perlisten couple of years back, but then changed my mind as did not like the S center (and the price). Mixing ported towers with sealed center is a bit off. I have it in my second setup and not ideal.

 

[perceptionist]

You’re comparing a bookshelf to a tower?

Harmonic Distortion at 96dB @ 1m and Dynamic Range (Instantaneous Compression Test) 102dB at 1 meter don't care it's a tower or a bookshelf.

 

[Buckchester]

Harmonic Distortion at 96dB @ 1m and Dynamic Range (Instantaneous Compression Test) 102dB at 1 meter don't care it's a tower or a bookshelf.

 

[John Schuermann]

I spoke to their rep at Axpona today about my disappointment on this. After trying to spin some nonsense about the waveguide (I pointed out the issue is woofer spacing) he conceded the center is more a “check the box” (exact words) than anything else.

I thought the towers they were playing sounded fine, but the finishes they’re offering are about a dozen years out of date. Black ash and an espresso type veneer. Performa3/Be looks like the newer speaker.

I'm glad you brought it up. Rex and I pushed hard for a bigger center; so did Mark from what I understand. But the market for it is tiny, so obviously someone made the executive decision it was not worth the development costs.

As you know, the C426Be is one of the best center speakers ever made. But it sits in the warehouse unsold. Unfortunately, market realities intrude on what we'd all like. I mean, how many people want a system that looks like this? Not many, unfortunately.

But it's not all doom and gloom, because most people wanting big flat panels want in-wall speakers to go with it. The number of box speaker systems we get requests for have been shrinking drastically over the last 5 years or so. And, as we showed in our double blind test, the Revel Be in-walls keep up with the box equivalents and even have some advantages. The Revel W228Be in-wall can be placed either vertically or horizontally and is almost $1000 cheaper than the C426Be - plus it's also the aesthetic people actually want these days.

Here's a link to the inwall shootout we did, in case you haven't seen it: https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/results-of-the-2024-tsr-spring-speaker-shootout

Kinda surprised you don't like the aesthetic of the new P4s; we think it's a pretty sexy speaker. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[John Schuermann]

That's interesting. I think one of the fears of the Samsung acquirement were things like the Harman Lab being sidelined or gone. Do you know who runs the lab now with most of the old guard gone?

Makes sense even if purists take issue

Makes sense even if purists take issue . Hopefully people are doing just that at Axpona.
Thanks John

Sadly almost all the people I knew at Harman are gone now - Floyd, Sean, Mark Glazer, Kevin Voecks. An Nguyen and Chris Hagen are still there and are terrific engineers. I hope An takes over the Revel line or at least hand picks Mark's replacement. Oh, and Kevin Kent is doing a good job in his position managing JBL Synthesis.

I think the research group is much smaller these days, or has moved over to car audio, where the real money is. The MLL is gone, which really makes me sad. They can still do blind tests but the speaker shuffler is no more.

That said, the attitude there is that - thanks to Floyd and Sean's work - they now know what the engineering targets need to be. I am told continuously that Harman will continue to be a science and engineering based company. But it is true that most of the old guard is not there anymore.

My point about the Spinoramas is that they should absolutely be used to narrow down the list of speakers to audition, but one needs to hear the very real differences in "presentation" before deciding what to buy. That's why people often fly out here to listen to the three models I mentioned side by side. All have textbook measurements, but all "present" differently.

 

[John Schuermann]

Yes, very accurate too. The directivity/dispersion will also add a bit of reverberance to the sound from the good off axis behavior. To many ears the wider Revel (or Philharmonic Audio for another example) favors acoustic music which is itself often reverberant - that's obviously a matter of taste but I think it's more often true than not. I also like it for home theater when I don't want the precise soundstage and sometimes have multi-listening point issues, which are also better with a wide directivity and the larger soundstage.

See, I like it too. I can switch back and forth between a Revel and Synthesis front stage in about 3 seconds. I like the bigger "bubble" of sound I get from the Revel system. But here's the thing - if I added a bunch more absorption to the front of the room, the Revels would start presenting more as "point source." So it can be a season to taste thing.

 

[John Schuermann]

Just reading through some of the comments here, especially those about dynamic compression / distortion.

It's true that I could hear my old Salon2 / Voice2 combo dynamically compress loud gunshots and explosions *when I directly compared them to the JBL SCL2s one after the other*.

But listening to the Salon2 / Voice2 combo on its own, this type of compression never called attention to itself. And I liked the overall spaciousness and presentation of the sound better. Doesn't mean everyone will, it just means I did.

With the Revel Be setup I have now, there is much less dynamic compression. But I've given up the silky top end of the Salon2.

If I went with Perlisten, I would probably have even less dynamic compression than the Bes (maybe, don't know for sure). But I'd have an orchestral string section that literally sounds about 3" wide. That's a non-starter for me.

Point being, we can get caught up in the measurements and as most people know I'm a HUGE believer in using measurements to narrow down our audition list. But it also helps to experience these speakers, or at least be aware of what type of "presentation" you prefer.

People also get hung up on the whole "music vs. movies" application thing, which also kinda bugs me, because movies have TONS of music in them. In fact, other than dialogue it's the most prominent thing on the soundtrack. And most of the time it's what's most active in not only the mains but surrounds as well.

Hence my preference for a more "open" vs. pinpoint soundstage. But, as our listening tests have shown, not everyone has my exact taste.

 

[MayI]

The MLL is gone, which really makes me sad. They can still do blind tests but the speaker shuffler is no more.

Very interesting. I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering how. Glad to know that blind testing is still part of the process.

My point about the Spinoramas is that they should absolutely be used to narrow down the list of speakers to audition, but one needs to hear the very real differences in "presentation" before deciding what to buy. That's why people often fly out here to listen to the three models I mentioned side by side. All have textbook measurements, but all "present" differently.

Makes perfect sense to me. Though I have observed quite a few people judging, comparing and picking speakers based purely on (spinorama) measurements and worse, some type of "score", as if listening tests were no longer a necessity. Thanks.

 

[amirm]

As you know, the C426Be is one of the best center speakers ever made. But it sits in the warehouse unsold.

They were even too big for me to consider buying!

 

[amirm]

Makes perfect sense to me. Though I have observed quite a few people judging, comparing and picking speakers based purely on (spinorama) measurements and worse, some type of "score", as if listening tests were no longer a necessity.

What else they are going to do? The business model is selling remote now. Using measurements will highly increase your chances of having a satisfying experience. I do agree the score itself needs work but it is good directionally.

FYI, this is the type of continued research we will no longer have from Harman. Better preference score, near vs far field listening, role of dispersion, etc. We got a lot to help us but there was more work to do....

 

[John Schuermann]

What else they are going to do? The business model is selling remote now. Using measurements will highly increase your chances of having a satisfying experience. I do agree the score itself needs work but it is good directionally.

FYI, this is the type of continued research we will no longer have from Harman. Better preference score, near vs far field listening, role of dispersion, etc. We got a lot to help us but there was more work to do....

Agree totally.

That whole "role of dispersion" thing is what much of what's left seems to ride on. But, IMO, it's kind of a dead end, because the "best" dispersion characteristic is going to depend on the recording. As I've gone on about, strings and most acoustic instruments (especially piano) really benefit from a wide dispersion like the Revels. But close mic'd brass and woodwinds and percussion benefit from a more "point source" presentation.

This (kinda cheesy) older recording illustrates my point:

The strings at the beginning have that wide open big sound on the Revels, but sound a bit dry on the JBL SCL2s. But when the brass kicks in at 1:05, those trumpets sound more convincing on the SCL2. So even if I had a speaker where I could vary dispersion and directivity, what would be the "best" setting?

As with all things A/V, it all depends on which compromises you want to live with, For me, Revel is the best "all-rounder" in this regard. I certainly don't hold it against anyone who disagrees!

 

[amper42]

If you like Classical Music the Revel wide dispersion is fantastic. Same with BMR Towers, but the BMR Towers are 6dB less efficient and lack the same tight syncopation feel of the F228Be/F328Be. It doesn't do any good to have Perlisten for those huge explosions, but miss out on the wide depth of the Revels during the other 99% of the audio presentation.

It's really nice to have measurements, but it's only a starting point. If you never audition multiple great speaker designs side by side you don't really know what you're missing. The Revel F228Be and F328Be are exceptional. I can see how the in wall F228Be option with the right install would be amazing as well.