New Philharmonic BMR HT Towers

[Dennis Murphy]

This this this.



I mostly agree with that, and @Sean Olive did a study (reported in Sound Reproduction - a book that seems often referenced but rarely read thoroughly) where people drew curves representing their perceived tonality, which largely tracked the direct sound.

That said, a large dispersion disruption in the midrange (generally caused by a too big mid, and tweeter on a crappy waveguide such as a flat baffle) is IMO an audible problem.



@amirm measured this one too I think. Good example of a speaker with bad waveguide (flat baffle) and on axis response sacrificed on the altar of power response. The solution to this is to put some thought into the waveguide instead of using a flat one, or make the mid super small.

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Those of us who do this at home are at the disadvantage that we can’t get high resolution measurements very low. That and the automation are NFS’s advantages.

I agree with that. But the Praxis software shifts over to a room response at around 250 Hz and below, and if you're familiar with how various speakers perform in your room, you can get a very good idea of the general bass level of a given speaker. That said, I would certainly prefer the precision Klippel give you.

 

[witwald]

Owning one [Klippel NFS] does not make one a better designer.

That sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?

 

[Nkam]

Many people have in the 2023 Capital Audio Fest Philharmonic Audio Room 306. We have instant switching capability with volume compensation in the room.
View attachment 331006

and if I may ask, what were the differences in the HT and regular BMR towers?

I read somewhere that the HT has slightly more punch to it from a bit more mid bass.

Also does the HT have a more pinpoint imaging since it is a bit less wide in its dispersion?
super wide dispersion speakers sometimes get too much side wall reflections for good pinpoint imaging.
I’m afraid that the BMRs while casting a huge soundstage might be a touch diffuse sounding in their imaging. Or not as snappy sounding because of the amount of reflections

thanks !

 

[ryanosaur]

That sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?

One might hope.
But somebody thought it was worth mentioning.
*shrugs


Wonder if anybody ever asks, “is that a Klippel NFS in your front pocket or are you just happy to see me?”

 

[aarons915]

Owning one does not make one a better designer. Please keep in mind that Philharmonic worked with an NFS owner to have designs proven.
And before that, paid to have at least one design measured at the NRC Anechoic Chamber.

Dave is clearly taking advantage of the ASR-proofing of his designs. I have no issue with this. Quite the opposite, I think it is very admirable.

Regarding Dennis, his Speakers still perform exactly as he wants them to. This is also very admirable.

And both designers are enjoying success.

Of course not, Dave Fabricant was the same designer before and after buying the NFS yet every speaker he released after buying it was better...that seems like pretty good evidence that the measurement system is responsible for the better designs doesn't it?

 

[Mnyb]

You want high quality trustworthy data. , as a basis for you decisions.

The NSF seems to remove some guesswork and tinkering for months/years ?

A manufacturer must consider the time it takes to design thier product if the NSF helps in being more effective and make more and better iterations of you product. You then choose to go to product faster or make a better product during the same development cycle.

Also does it not have resolution at lower frequencies that someother methods lacks , you as a designer migth hear the issue but have a hard time figuring exactly what’s the problem .

 

[Dennis Murphy]

and if I may ask, what were the differences in the HT and regular BMR towers?

I read somewhere that the HT has slightly more punch to it from a bit more mid bass.

Also does the HT have a more pinpoint imaging since it is a bit less wide in its dispersion?
super wide dispersion speakers sometimes get too much side wall reflections for good pinpoint imaging.
I’m afraid that the BMRs while casting a huge soundstage might be a touch diffuse sounding in their imaging. Or not as snappy sounding because of the amount of reflections

thanks !

I couldn't hear any difference between the two in terms of imaging. I think people tend to hear what they think they should hear in that department. I'm pretty sure the results of a blind test between a wide-dispersion speaker and a narrower-dispersion unit would be very different from those of a sighted test. The HT may have a tad higher midbass level than big BMR tower, but it's subtle.

 

[Nkam]

I couldn't hear any difference between the two in terms of imaging. I think people tend to hear what they think they should hear in that department. I'm pretty sure the results of a blind test between a wide-dispersion speaker and a narrower-dispersion unit would be very different from those of a sighted test. The HT may have a tad higher midbass level than big BMR tower, but it's subtle.

thank you

I know you are going for super wide dispersion to mimic orchestras.
but with such wide dispersion , don’t you lose the ‘ impact’ other less wide dispersion drivers give?
from what I understand sometimes a bit more focused directivity of SPL leads to better impact.
for example , how do the wide dispersion BMR towers handle a modern drum solo or rock music compared to let’s say a horn loaded speaker or speaker with wave guides.
A lot of ‘ negatives’ from some omnidirectional speakers are that they are too laid back sounding and too smooth because of the 360 dispersion.

Also when I go to see orchestras playing I always prefer to get a seat somewhere in the middle and distance wise somewhere again in the middle to closer to the front because I love strings.
if you sit too far behind in a concert hall the strings will tend to sound indistinct.
up too close and you will of course lose all the rest of the wall of sound from the rest of the orchestra.

i personally prefer a bit closer than center distance from the orchestra.

I think the topic of dispersion is more interesting and impactful to recreating a live instrument sound in speakers than has been researched.
if you think of it, every instrument has its own dispersion characteristics.
a trumpet will have more narrow directivity , a piano a wider dispersion

why rock probably sounds better on narrower dispersion speakers because , rock music for the most part uses amplifiers and cabinets for its sound directivity. A guitar cab for example is completely narrow dispersion compared to an acoustic instrument.

drums on the other hand are super wide dispersion. Maybe that’s why rock music sounds a bit off on wide dispersion speakers.



thank you as this is educational as well!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

thank you

I know you are going for super wide dispersion to mimic orchestras.
but with such wide dispersion , don’t you lose the ‘ impact’ other less wide dispersion drivers give?
from what I understand sometimes a bit more focused directivity of SPL leads to better impact.
for example , how do the wide dispersion BMR towers handle a modern drum solo or rock music compared to let’s say a horn loaded speaker or speaker with wave guides.
A lot of ‘ negatives’ from some omnidirectional speakers are that they are too laid back sounding and too smooth because of the 360 dispersion.

Also when I go to see orchestras playing I always prefer to get a seat somewhere in the middle and distance wise somewhere again in the middle to closer to the front because I love strings.
if you sit too far behind in a concert hall the strings will tend to sound indistinct.
up too close and you will of course lose all the rest of the wall of sound from the rest of the orchestra.

i personally prefer a bit closer than center distance from the orchestra.

I think the topic of dispersion is more interesting and impactful to recreating a live instrument sound in speakers than has been researched.
if you think of it, every instrument has its own dispersion characteristics.
a trumpet will have more narrow directivity , a piano a wider dispersion

why rock probably sounds better on narrower dispersion speakers because , rock music for the most part uses amplifiers and cabinets for its sound directivity. A guitar cab for example is completely narrow dispersion compared to an acoustic instrument.

drums on the other hand are super wide dispersion. Maybe that’s why rock music sounds a bit off on wide dispersion speakers.



thank you as this is educational as well!

I don't think there's any scientific basis for declaring one speaker radiation pattern as "right." There are too many variables. But I don't think the BMR series lack "impact." That's more a function of wide dynamic range and low distortion. Lacking clear science on this subject, I just design speakers that sound "right" to me.

 

[Nkam]

I don't think there's any scientific basis for declaring one speaker radiation pattern as "right." There are too many variables. But I don't think the BMR series lack "impact." That's more a function of wide dynamic range and low distortion. Lacking clear science on this subject, I just design speakers that sound "right" to me.

that’s why I lean more towards the BMR HT tower. Much more dynamic and loud

yeah not enough science on these variables.

have you tried a similar design but with less wide dispersion mid drivers and a soft dome or metal dome in place of the BMR drivers and ribbon tweeter?


great stuff Dennis.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

that’s why I lean more towards the BMR HT tower. Much more dynamic and loud

yeah not enough science on these variables.

have you tried a similar design but with less wide dispersion mid drivers and a soft dome or metal dome in place of the BMR drivers and ribbon tweeter?


great stuff Dennis.

I've designed a million of those for Jim Salk and others, and they sound fine. Just not as fine as the BMR series.

 

[Nkam]

I've designed a million of those for Jim Salk and others, and they sound fine. Just not as fine as the BMR series.

you are more happy with the BMRs instead of let’s say the Salk SS 8?
no offense , I just looked at that accuton driver and thought it must sound amazing.

wow

are you thinking of making a more expensive ‘ better’ BMR tower In the future?
more sensitivity like the HT but with louder output and even better drivers for the mids?

maybe two Accuton mid drivers in place of the BMR drivers?

I personally like simple MTM designs. One BE tweeter ( or optional AMT) in the middle of two of those 6.5” purifI drivers crossed at around 2.5khz which is a sweet spot sounding xo freq for dome tweeters
but making it a transmission line speaker would be amazing
just the tweeter would have to be high enough.



cheers

 

[ryanosaur]

maybe two Accuton mid drivers in place of the BMR drivers

And increase the price by around $2000 retail?


I’ve seen a lot of folk second guessing designers and their choices, lately. Trust me when I say there is nothing wrong with the Mids in Dennis’ designs utilizing the humble BMR Drivers.
All the detail and revealing characteristics are present, in spades. I sure wouldn’t trade any of my gear for KEFs or beg Dennis for custom upgrades. It’s simply not needed.

 

[Nkam]

And increase the price by around $2000 retail?


I’ve seen a lot of folk second guessing designers and their choices, lately. Trust me when I say there is nothing wrong with the Mids in Dennis’ designs utilizing the humble BMR Drivers.
All the detail and revealing characteristics are present, in spades. I sure wouldn’t trade any of my gear for KEFs or beg Dennis for custom upgrades. It’s simply not needed.

yeah I’m sure the design is more important than the drivers.

but I personally wouldn’t mind paying a bit more for something ‘ better’.

we people are fascinating in that price usually equals quality.
a lot use that psychology as marketing.

 

[ryanosaur]

yeah I’m sure the design is more important than the drivers.

but I personally wouldn’t mind paying a bit more for something ‘ better’.

we people are fascinating in that price usually equals quality.
a lot use that psychology as marketing.

I heard an all Accuton Tower once. It was stunning. Custom built for Aurender so they could show off their Streamers. Each Tower weighed over 200#. Cabinets were milled aluminum.
Stunning SQ.

Other than the Bling Factor…. I never felt I was giving up much against those Towers with my own Philharmonic Speakers.

That audio show taught me well that price does not equal quality.

 

[Nkam]

I heard an all Accuton Tower once. It was stunning. Custom built for Aurender so they could show off their Streamers. Each Tower weighed over 200#. Cabinets were milled aluminum.
Stunning SQ.

Other than the Bling Factor…. I never felt I was giving up much against those Towers with my own Philharmonic Speakers.

That audio show taught me well that price does not equal quality.

like I wrote to you in private I want my speakers to punch and have great attack if the music calls for it. Even when I listen to classical.
I want to feel the thump of an upright bass, or feel and hear the klang of kettle drums.
I was hoping the BMR HT does that since it plays louder and doesn't have as wide dispersion As the regular BMT tower.

 

[alexis]

like I wrote to you in private I want my speakers to punch and have great attack if the music calls for it. Even when I listen to classical.
I want to feel the thump of an upright bass, or feel and hear the klang of kettle drums.
I was hoping the BMR HT does that since it plays louder and doesn't have as wide dispersion As the regular BMT tower.

You can feel both (upright bass and kettle drums) on both Towers. I have the HT Towers and the HT center in my home theater. The Scan Center is on the ground because of the 135" Projector screen. The Scan center tweeter is far below the HT Tower tweeters. When the movie is played, I cannot tell where they are. They created a seamless and huge sound stage that I have to re-watch all my favorite scenes - Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning theme song, Top Gun Mach 10, Blade Runner 2049 first 5 minutes, Bohemian Rhapsody last 15 minutes and etc. I set my crossover at 80Hz. The parts that I'm feeling goosebumps that make me want to re-discover favorite scenes are not from the subwoofer, these are all from the front, center and left speakers. All the powerful and super clean punch from the Mission Impossible theme song - most from the center stage. I can hear these Purifi punches...

 

[Dennis Murphy]

you are more happy with the BMRs instead of let’s say the Salk SS 8?
no offense , I just looked at that accuton driver and thought it must sound amazing.

wow

are you thinking of making a more expensive ‘ better’ BMR tower In the future?
more sensitivity like the HT but with louder output and even better drivers for the mids?

maybe two Accuton mid drivers in place of the BMR drivers?

I personally like simple MTM designs. One BE tweeter ( or optional AMT) in the middle of two of those 6.5” purifI drivers crossed at around 2.5khz which is a sweet spot sounding xo freq for dome tweeters
but making it a transmission line speaker would be amazing
just the tweeter would have to be high enough.



cheers

I've done a version of the BMR monitor using the Accuton "Cell" tweeter and matching midrange, and a Purifi 6.5" woofer. That's something like $1500 per side. I liked the results, but preferred the stock BMR by a small margin--at least at normal listening levels.

 

[Nkam]

I've done a version of the BMR monitor using the Accuton "Cell" tweeter and matching midrange, and a Purifi 6.5" woofer. That's something like $1500 per side. I liked the results, but preferred the stock BMR by a small margin--at least at normal listening levels.

oh , so the Accuton mids and tweeter weren’t used in an MTM configuration as the BMR HT tower?

from what you wrote above you used one Purifi woofer, one Accuton mid and one Accuton tweeter Per speaker ?
Which Accuton mid did you use? The C90 6724?

interesting that you crossover the purifi drivers to the BMR mid drivers at 700hz. Is that correct?
the purify drivers are smooth and distortion free up way higher. What was the reason for handing off to the BMR drivers at 700hz if you don’t mind me asking.
im learning as well.



cheers , great conversation

 

[valerianf]

@Dennis Murphy ,
Just a simple question.
Why the vent is located at the back of the BMR HT Towers?
My guess is that for a home theater use a front vent allows an easier placement for the tower speakers.