New (or updated?) system recommendation (Budget: 3000 euro)

[Moustache]

Hi all,

Been lurking a bit in this forum but decided to make an account and ask for your expert advice.

I have a pair of B&W 683 S2 paired with a NAD C275BEE and Denon X3700H. I am currently running a 2.0 system, and want to expand it to (begin with) 2.1 or 3.1.

I have had the speakers for a long time, and I am not sure if I should keep them, and add the rest, or start over. I don't know if the NAD is worth keeping either, if I should just keep it or upgrade it.

Looking for advice in either direction. Budget for new speakers would be at most 3,000 eur, the less the better, of course. I'd like to stick with the tower speaker style.

Thanks in advance.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Your speakers look to be fundamentally decent if not without quirks:

Bowers & Wilkins 683 S2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Bowers & Wilkins 683 S2's frequency response in the farfield; and an Earthworks QTC-40, with its small, ¼"-diameter capsule, for the nearfield responses.

www.stereophile.com

The on-axis FR looks worse than it is as the treble eccentricities at 4 and 6 kHz even out off-axis. What remains is mostly the dip around 2 kHz which needs some EQ... I think the Denon can take care of that. Impedance dips borderline too low even for a nominal 4 ohm speaker (let alone the 8 it's supposed to be), but you've got the NAD for that.

Your best bet probably is a speaker upgrade. I might look at something like the Canton Townus 90, which at ~2600€ the pair would fit your budget to a tee, looks nice and smooth off-axis in particular (though it might skew slightly bright?) and sports a well-behaved impedance curve.

Testergebnisse

www.stereo.de

Canton Townus 90: Seite 5 - i-fidelity.net

Canton Townus 90 im i-fidelity.net-Messlabor.

www.i-fidelity.net

(You can also still buy the classic Ergo 690 DC for a bit less, which while a 15-year-old design is by no means a slouch with its twin 8" woofers. Their speakers generally measured well even in the mid-2000s.)

There's nothing keeping you from keeping the B&Ws and running a 4.0, they should be plenty good enough as surrounds. Either of these big Cantons make it down to 20 Hz with not too much trouble, so that's pretty much "subwoofer not strictly necessary" terrain.

 

[Moustache]

Thank you for your reply!

I actually decided to order a sub, SVS SB-2000 Pro. I think I will start and see how that sounds. If its still meh, I’ll replace the fronts.

I was eyeing the Triangle BR08, which looked pretty good for their price, but I’m no expert.

 

[Moustache]

For what it's worth, I have to ensure they look good enough for the wife to accept it. The current speakers are OK in size, but I can't go much/any bigger. I think the Canton are a bit too large.

Would you be able to recommend anything in a similar size to what I have today? Preferably something that'd fit the living room without looking... hideous.

 

[Moustache]

I've tried to compile a list of attainable speakers that, from a cursory look, seem good:
- KEF R5
- Paradigm 700F (800F?)
- Elac UFR52
- Elac Carina FS 247.4
- Triangle BR08
- Canton Townus 90
- Sonus Faber Lumina III

I've spent about 800 eur on the subwoofer from my budget, so I'd say somewhere around 2500 eur left. I'm cool with looking at used speakers, too. Biggest issue is likely going to be WAF (wife approval factor).

For what its worth, these will be standing ~10cm from a wall, I don't know if that affects the speaker choice.

 

[HeadDoc12]

I've tried to compile a list of attainable speakers that, from a cursory look, seem good:
- KEF R5
- Paradigm 700F (800F?)
- Elac UFR52
- Elac Carina FS 247.4
- Triangle BR08
- Canton Townus 90
- Sonus Faber Lumina III

I've spent about 800 eur on the subwoofer from my budget, so I'd say somewhere around 2500 eur left. I'm cool with looking at used speakers, too. Biggest issue is likely going to be WAF (wife approval factor).

For what its worth, these will be standing ~10cm from a wall, I don't know if that affects the speaker choice.

Very few speakers will sound their best that close to the wall. Maybe in a huge room, where you’re trying to get the most bass from your system, you might get SOME benefit, but also tradeoffs in the form of uneven frequency response and other issues. That said, from that list I would go with R5 Meta.

 

[Moustache]

Very few speakers will sound their best that close to the wall. Maybe in a huge room, where you’re trying to get the most bass from your system, you might get SOME benefit, but also tradeoffs in the form of uneven frequency response and other issues. That said, from that list I would go with R5 Meta.

Thanks for the reply. I don't have much choice, TV is wall mounted, and the speakers go next to it. I have moved them out ~15cm, but more than that, and it looks very odd. As for the room, it's 35-40m2, about 7m long, 5m wide, with high ceilings of 3-3.5m.

I can't afford the R5 Meta, they are too expensive, but the R5 are still on sale here and there and within my budget range. If I can't find those, I'm leaning towards one of the ELACs.

 

[HeadDoc12]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have much choice, TV is wall mounted, and the speakers go next to it. I have moved them out ~15cm, but more than that, and it looks very odd. As for the room, it's 35-40m2, about 7m long, 5m wide, with high ceilings of 3-3.5m.

I can't afford the R5 Meta, they are too expensive, but the R5 are still on sale here and there and within my budget range.

I would still go for the R5. This is one of the reasons I went to an active system (KEF LS50 Wireless II plus subs). You can tell the system the wall distance and it will make some adjustments to the sound accordingly. I am still pretty amazed how few speakers are designed for near wall placement, especially when so many of them show photographs of their product so close to the wall!

 

[Moustache]

I would still go for the R5. This is one of the reasons I went to an active system (KEF LS50 Wireless II plus subs). You can tell the system the wall distance and it will make some adjustments to the sound accordingly. I am still pretty amazed how few speakers are designed for near wall placement, especially when so many of them show photographs of their product so close to the wall!

That's great. I wonder if looking for a front ported speaker (like my current ones) is better?

 

[HeadDoc12]

That's great. I wonder if looking for a front ported speaker (like my current ones) is better?

That should help a little bit, but not completely. Another (odd) option would be something like the Larsen 4.3. Not sure about the cost where you are, or much of anything about them. They HAVE to be placed up against the wall, which reinforces the bass, but they produce a different kind of stereo image, and are pretty unconventional.

 

[VMAT4]

Have you looked at Focal Speakers? They seam to usually be front ported. The Aria Evo X Nº 2 goes for under 2000 €.

 

[Ellebob]

Is there any place you can listen to the speakers? Also, if a dealer wil let you take them home and try them that is even better.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

IMO the biggest speaker upgrade you can make is Room Correction and a sub.

Once you have a sub, then room correction is even better for reducing peaks and also if you’re placing your speakers close to a wall.

Some Denon gear can run Dirac live.

 

[Moustache]

Have you looked at Focal Speakers? They seam to usually be front ported. The Aria Evo X Nº 2 goes for under 2000 €.

I have not, thank you! I'll put that on the list.

Is there any place you can listen to the speakers? Also, if a dealer wil let you take them home and try them that is even better.

I will look around and see if I have any local shops that can accomodate this. The most popular shop around here just sells Dali and B&W.

IMO the biggest speaker upgrade you can make is Room Correction and a sub.

Once you have a sub, then room correction is even better for reducing peaks and also if you’re placing your speakers close to a wall.

Some Denon gear can run Dirac live.

I'll have a listen the coming week with the new sub and see how I feel. I don't have access to Dirac Live, only Audyssey XT32.

 

[Waxx]

I would not change the speaker, but add a good dsp (MiniDSP Flex probally) with DIRAC or some similar room correction, and while doing that, sell the Denon amp and get some newer amps and a subwoofer to work with the MiniDSP and the B&W's. Those are quiet decent, even for today and better in tower speaker does not really match up with the improvement that a sub and dsp can make.

So keep the B&W's and change the following

Add:
a miniDSP flex (650€), unbalanced is in your case good enough.
DIRAC (200€)
Umik microphone+ stand (100€)
A good amp of 250W/4R (more than enough) like the Audiophonics AP300-S250NC (650) with NCore amp boards.
And a good pair of subs like the SVS SB-1000Pro (800€), One can do a lot, but if possible 2 is better for a more balanced bass in the room (not for volume, but for acoustics you need 2, google Floyd Toole's multisub theory if you want to know why).

In total that is 3200€ with two subs. If you can start with one and sell the NAD, or keep the NAD as amp (as it's not bad at all, just no match for high end class D of now like the Audiophonics) and use the MiniDSP Flex as preamp/dac and dsp with room correction. The main thing to make your setup better is add advanced dsp with room correction and a few subs i think.

The Denon is a A/V amp, i don't know if you need that. If not, sell also. The NAD is a much better amp anyway. But if you need any of the AV possibities of that Denon, use it as a preamp with the line out to the minidsp analog in, and from the miniDSP you go to the amp for the main speakers and the active subwoofers. doing the filtering and crossover between mains and subs in the minidsp. You don't need the 9.1 out i think, because you don't have the speaker setup for that.

That is at least what I would do.

 

[Moustache]

I would not change the speaker, but add a good dsp (MiniDSP Flex probally) with DIRAC or some similar room correction, and while doing that, sell the Denon amp and get some newer amps and a subwoofer to work with the MiniDSP and the B&W's. Those are quiet decent, even for today and better in tower speaker does not really match up with the improvement that a sub and dsp can make.

So keep the B&W's and change the following

Add:
a miniDSP flex (650€), unbalanced is in your case good enough.
DIRAC (200€)
Umik microphone+ stand (100€)
A good amp of 250W/4R (more than enough) like the Audiophonics AP300-S250NC (650) with NCore amp boards.
And a good pair of subs like the SVS SB-1000Pro (800€), One can do a lot, but if possible 2 is better for a more balanced bass in the room (not for volume, but for acoustics you need 2, google Floyd Toole's multisub theory if you want to know why).

In total that is 3200€ with two subs. If you can start with one and sell the NAD, or keep the NAD as amp (as it's not bad at all, just no match for high end class D of now like the Audiophonics) and use the MiniDSP Flex as preamp/dac and dsp with room correction. The main thing to make your setup better is add advanced dsp with room correction and a few subs i think.

The Denon is a A/V amp, i don't know if you need that. If not, sell also. The NAD is a much better amp anyway. But if you need any of the AV possibities of that Denon, use it as a preamp with the line out to the minidsp analog in, and from the miniDSP you go to the amp for the main speakers and the active subwoofers. doing the filtering and crossover between mains and subs in the minidsp. You don't need the 9.1 out i think, because you don't have the speaker setup for that.

That is at least what I would do.

What a detailed answer! Thank you.

I use my Denon AVR to connect different HDMI inputs, handle airplay/spotify etc. It's fairly useful. Ive set it up as a preamp and let my NAD power the front speakers instead. Do I still need the miniDSP?

I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction, and my version of the Denon does not support Dirac unfortunately.

Do I need to replace my NAD or do you thing its powerful enough for my speakers?

I have added my SVS SB-2000 Pro and I am working on subwoofer placement and calibration as we speak.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

According to Amirs review Audyssey XT32 is pretty good. There are a few tips for adjusting the target curve if you haven’t done that.

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I doubt Dirac live would be miles better.
I didn’t realise that your Denon had room correction already!

 

[Moustache]

According to Amirs review Audyssey XT32 is pretty good. There are a few tips for adjusting the target curve if you haven’t done that.

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I doubt Dirac live would be miles better.
I didn’t realise that your Denon had room correction already!

Thanks for the link! I will go check it out.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons I bought the Denon. It was the cheapest pre-processor that had HDMI-handling and room correction, even though it's a full fledged AVR, it has an option to only to pre-processing.

 

[Waxx]

The Audysey i know from the past surely can't do what Dirac does, it was a simple dsp, no fir eq, no crossover setting, no room correction on measurements. But it's years ago i messed with an Audyssey setup, so that may have changed. I never used the XT32 version so I can't tell if it is up on par with more modern stuff like the MiniDSP software. I see in the link above that you now can use measurements to base your eq on, and that it works quiet well if you use the app to tune it, but my personal experience with Audyssey was not good.

MiniDSP is only one device that can do room correction. You can also do it with some amps who have Dirac or other similar systems, but they are mostly way more expensive than a MiniDSP flex, and with less quality. The Denon ad/da conversion is not bad, but also not on the level of a MiniDSP. And MiniDSP can do much more, it will also help to integrate your subs into your system like it should (time and phase aligned,) and gives you access to quiet powerfull FIR eq, both things the Audyssey can't as far as i know... I did my room eq with FIR EQ, but i can do that because i have years experience with room eq before from my time as sound engineer for high power dj systems. They use room eq since at least the 90's, also on measurements, but done manually with the DSP's used back then (BSS Omnidrive, DBX 400 series, Behringer DSP).

I know the Lyndrof Roomperfect is quiet good bu, but also not on level with Dirac It's way more expensive and it's corrections are far less precise than Dirac. Dirac is also not perfect, but it can do a lot that most people even can't imagine.


The question if you need it is more upon you, if you want to go further. Try the Audyssey with the app and a microphone (see review in link above) first, and see if you can make a difference with it. But i would sell the Denon and get a MiniDSP Flex or other model (there are cheaper ones, and the 2x4HD is good on ad/da, not exellent like the Flex). In my opinion it will make a big difference, also because it's easier to align your subwoofers with the main speakers (while the filter of a subwoofer plateamp mostly is a very rough filter, not precise). The only thing minidsp misses for you is HDMI input i think. If the only need is to extract audio from it from video, there may be better solutions than a whole 9.1 AV amplifier system like the Denon for just that.

But at the end, we can only advice, you need to decide if it's worth it.