New Neumann stuff announcing Friday 9/12

[Pearljam5000]

I still don't understand why pro subs are so expensive

 

[Kervel]

Yep, the price seems quite up there. The closest competing product is the genelec 7370, with about the same price, but it weighs 48kg with a 12 woofer; as compared to 29 kg for the KH 810 II and 10inch.

 

[Behrelec 37]

Pearljam5000.

Professional subwoofers are also known to be expensive compared to many hifi subwoofers, because at least the Genelecs usually have, in addition to analog multi-channel connections, the option to connect XLR to AES/EBU with a digital connection and continue from the subwoofer to the speakers as one digital pipe (few products can actually do this).

DSP room correction is also included in these subwoofers, which is not a low-level room correction, but its purpose is to integrate deeper and fuller compared to the level of the main speakers, flawlessly and seamlessly. It is therefore as high-quality as the room correction of the main speakers in terms of quality.Of course, you have to use the computer for a while in between, but only for that moment.

Another important factor in professional sound reproduction is limiters, which forcibly reduce excessively high volume levels/powers with indicator lights, so that these subwoofers or main speakers are not damaged by loud playing.Consumers should already know all the compromises. Of course, they are not bad for home users for hi-fi/movie listening, but the connections are often only analog as stereo connections. That is, they are often quite limited and limited to where you can actually connect or apply them.

 

[jhaider]

Why should they need improvement ? DSP ? maybe but in itself it doesn'at change much the sound

Actually, the way Neumann used DSP could result in significant performance gains. I think on KH 120 II and KH 150 they designed the woofer for flat and extended BL over excursion without regard to its behavior over the limit. Instead they use the electronics to keep it under control. That allows longer and more linear throw but could lead to disaster if the electronics aren’t carefully tailored to use and protect the driver. @Sean Olive did an interview video where he talked in part about a baby JBL woofer that was similarly designed. He used the word “rectify” IIRC to describe what would happen to it if it went over the designed excursion.

Considering the headroom improvements in KH 120 II over KH 120, a KH 310 II might be able near main monitor capability over 80-100 Hz.

 

[Tovarich007]

It could benefit from a better woofer like in the KH120 II and KH150

Of course, components and acoustic/electronics design have always a magin of progression and improvement. But is it worth the cost of R&D and making for the firm and is the slighly better performance worth the change and the cost for users ?

The KH310 bass response is pretty good yet considering its size and closes cabinet. Must studios using this speaker seem satisfied with it, so why change ?

 

[boxerfan88]

You are right. I use my KH310A with subwoofer. While working (not playing loud), I use the KH310A without subwoofer (full range, HPF removed), the bass response is pretty good actually.

 

[LTig]

The KH310 bass response is pretty good yet considering its size and closes cabinet. Must studios using this speaker seem satisfied with it, so why change ?

AFAIR improvement in the bass response was the major step forward over the O300D (7 dB higher SPL). Since I use a sub with my O300D I see no need for an update.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Of course, components and acoustic/electronics design have always a magin of progression and improvement. But is it worth the cost of R&D and making for the firm and is the slighly better performance worth the change and the cost for users ?

The KH310 bass response is pretty good yet considering its size and closes cabinet. Must studios using this speaker seem satisfied with it, so why change ?

You mean they should close down their R&D and settle on selling their older products, because if they release a new version, everyone is forced to upgrade and invest more money, because the older models become bad instantly? What kind of logic is that?

The KH120 also was almost perfect and still is great, but the KH120 II is a bit better in some aspects and also has the new digital stuff. I expect the same for the 310 II, some small improvements due to DSP implemetation, but mainly an upgrade in the digital domain. I won't buy it anytime soon, because the KH120II are sufficient for me, though.

With the new subwoofers, older analog Neumann monitors even got more attractive, i think. Studios or other users can hold on to their systems longer or even upgrade multichannel systems with older analog monitors and still use the newest DSP-tech, if they want.

 

[Henryk]

The KH120 also was almost perfect and still is great, but the KH120 II is a bit better in some aspects and also has the new digital stuff. I expect the same for the 310 II, some small improvements due to DSP implemetation, but mainly an upgrade in the digital domain. I won't buy it anytime soon, because the KH120II are sufficient for me, though.

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't DSP have quite a large effect on speaker performance?
Could we not see a significant improvement just from DSP?

 

[Steakhouse]

No. Why should it?

 

[Tovarich007]

You mean they should close down their R&D and settle on selling their older products, because if they release a new version, everyone is forced to upgrade and invest more money, because the older models become bad instantly? What kind of logic is that?

The KH120 also was almost perfect and still is great, but the KH120 II is a bit better in some aspects and also has the new digital stuff. I expect the same for the 310 II, some small improvements due to DSP implemetation, but mainly an upgrade in the digital domain. I won't buy it anytime soon, because the KH120II are sufficient for me, though.

With the new subwoofers, older analog Neumann monitors even got more attractive, i think. Studios or other users can hold on to their systems longer or even upgrade multichannel systems with older analog monitors and still use the newest DSP-tech, if they want.

I definitely didn't mean such a silly thing, don't make me write what I don't think at all !
I just wanted to point out that the improvement and commercial release of the entire line of its monitor range is not prioritary for Neumann, because, it's not for its clients (whom 90 % are in the pro domain). If Neumann owners (Neumann is a member of Sennheiser group) aren't convinced that new monitor models will sell well, they won't release them. But surely they have stidied and begun to prototype some new models. But will they pursuie their design and sell them, that's another story.

 

[LTig]

No. Why should it?

There are things possible with DSP which cannot be done analog:

• Much steeper cross overs limit the range where 2 speakers overlap. This allows drivers to be driven louder without damage. The off axis dips and peaks are more narrow and hence less audible.
• Use delays to time align the drivers for a coherent wave front.
• Calculate the accumulated average power sent to each driver, to protection the voice coil of overheating.

 

[Tovarich007]

View attachment 476049
I still don't understand why pro subs are so expensive

Generally, pros buy entire systems from one or two brands whose technicians will install et calibrate them in the studio. For pros, homogeneity, reliability and long term service from the brand are top concerns. All this has a price.
And don't forget that pros are allowed to do accounting depreciation on their investments, and moreover it's their clients who finally pay the VAT.
So the final expense for them is much less than the products price tag.

But for amateurs, these advanatges don't exist and the criterias I mentioned above are less essential (but important anyway). Some hifi subs are very well done and have excellent value (Arendal, SVS, Paradigm to name a few). If I had to buy a brand new sub, I'll probably buy an hifi one, not a pro one, as good as Genelec or Neumann subs are.

 

[Andreas007]

I would really like to see cardioid bass from Neumann.
As already stated by others everything else is just a minor improvement of already great speakers.

 

[Steakhouse]

There are things possible with DSP which cannot be done analog:

• Much steeper cross overs limit the range where 2 speakers overlap. This allows drivers to be driven louder without damage. The off axis dips and peaks are more narrow and hence less audible.
• Use delays to time align the drivers for a coherent wave front.
• Calculate the accumulated average power sent to each driver, to protection the voice coil of overheating.

Only the first one is valid but it is not a big gain to expect here. Time alignment is also possible via analog circuits and also not necessary since it is done via the waveguide and the reference axis. There is only one vertical angle where 2 speakers are time aligned no matter what DSP is used. Limiting can be done via analog circuits.

So yes, there is some effect. Is not by any means large.

 

[Sokel]

There are things possible with DSP which cannot be done analog:

• Use delays to time align the drivers for a coherent wave front.

To be fair, delays (variable! ) exists in even cheap analog garbagio like this.
AP filters are easy.

 

[Honken]

No improved 310s? I am disappointed. It'd be easy to improve them, and the 420, by equipping them with more efficient amplifiers. I really do not like how hot my 310s get when idling, and the 420 is even hotter. I suppose one could beef up the amplifiers using class D as well, not that I think that the amplifier juice is what limits the 310.

Although to be fair, Neuman not updating the 310 pleases me in a sense since I'd imagine that any updated speaker would be DSP based and I'd rather avoid that. Don't bash me, I know that I am irrational, I just think that analog speakers require a bit more engineering effort to be as good as the 310 and 420 are. I know DSP can improve both speakers and that denying DSP is irrational objectively speaking.

 

[respice finem]

The KH 310A has no digital delay, which of course is not a really important factor for home use.
The amps are not that inefficient for their class, they are quite powerful, with the side effect of idling warmer.

Source: https://www.neumann.com/en-us/products/monitors/kh-310-a

 

[Honken]

I know, I own them. They warm my apartment nicely in the winter. Not exactly something I want in the summer when I am running AC to keep the indoor temperature under control.

 

[respice finem]

I know, I have the same "blessing" but living surrounded by tall trees, and in a white house, I can cope without AC.