New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[ba7777]

New version 1.2 of the MA 1 software released:

From the release notes:
"Improvements:
•Possibility to align 2 subwoofers in one system
•Possibility to adjust system gain at the end of the measuring process
•Improved loudness comparability between default and aligned system
•Optimized output level during measurement
•Each single measurement can be repeated if necessary
•Audio and network settings from previous measurements are taken over
•Improved visualization of signal-to-noise ratio
•Support of virtualaudio interfaces (Windows)
•Quality of equalizers can be adjusted by using the mouse wheel
•Simplified installation process (Windows)
•Extended instruction manual"

Edit: After reading the new manual i wonder what they changed. This still looks like the same old workaround. Confusing... :-/

Thanks for the update.

But after reading the new Alignment Instructions and comparing it with the old version, I feel so disappointed.

It looks totally the same except the "Variant 2: Stereo Sub" is no more marked as "not recommended".

I mean, since they can deal with a stereo system with 2 kh80s, how hard could it be for Neumann to treat this 2.2 system as 3 way (2 kh750s + 2 kh120s/80s) or 4 way (2 kh750s + 2 kh310s) speakers system?

 

[jj-wohlgemuth]

Thanks for the update.

But after reading the new Alignment Instructions and comparing it with the old version, I feel so disappointed.

It looks totally the same except the "Variant 2: Stereo Sub" is no more marked as "not recommended".

I mean, since they can deal with a stereo system with 2 kh80s, how hard could it be for Neumann to treat this 2.2 system as 3 way (2 kh750s + 2 kh120s/80s) or 4 way (2 kh750s + 2 kh310s) speakers system?

It's a mistake in the Instruction Manual. Version 1.2 fully supports a stereo setup (KH 80, KH 120, KH 310, KH 420) with two KH 750 DSP. The workarounds described in the Instruction Manual apply only to older versions and are not needed anymore since version 1.2.0.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

It's a mistake in the Instruction Manual. Version 1.2 fully supports a stereo setup (KH 80, KH 120, KH 310, KH 420) with two KH 750 DSP. The Workarounds described in the Instruction Manual apply only to older versions and are not needed anymore since version 1.2.0.

Great to see someone from Neumann here! Will the manual be updated soon? I´m interested in buying a second KH750 and would like to know if there are any restrictions i might want to know before. Also i am interested whether the new software changes the recommendations on how to position and wire the subs. Do you still recommend placing two mono-subs at 1/4 and 3/4 of the width of the room? Does it matter to the software if the subs are positioned in equal distances or not? In short: I would be interested in learning more about how the software works with 2 subs.

 

[ba7777]

It's a mistake in the Instruction Manual. Version 1.2 fully supports a stereo setup (KH 80, KH 120, KH 310, KH 420) with two KH 750 DSP. The Workarounds described in the Instruction Manual apply only to older versions and are not needed anymore since version 1.2.0.

View attachment 132255

Wow I need a MA-1 now. Thank you kind sir for the info.

 

[badboygolf16v]

I've been struggling to decide what to do with my KH80/KH805 system.

I'm reluctant to replace my KH805 with a KH750 because specs wise it's not as good.

Would two KH750 match the KH805 in distortion and output capabilities?

Any feedback greatly appreciated. Especially from @jj-wohlgemuth!

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Would two KH750 match the KH805 in distortion and output capabilities?

Not completely, if i understand the data correctly. If you add 6 db to the KH750, it´s still a bit less loud than the KH805 with same THD. Not sure if this is the best data to compare, though. Is my interpretation correct?

KH805:

 

[Deleted member 12642]

New version is still missing the ability to dim logos.

 

[jj-wohlgemuth]

Great to see someone from Neumann here! Will the manual be updated soon? I´m interested in buying a second KH750 and would like to know if there are any restrictions i might want to know before. Also i am interested whether the new software changes the recommendations on how to position and wire the subs. Do you still recommend placing two mono-subs at 1/4 and 3/4 of the width of the room? Does it matter to the software if the subs are positioned in equal distances or not? In short: I would be interested in learning more about how the software works with 2 subs.

Yes the app recommends to place the KH 750s at 1/4 and 3/4 of the room width and (if you can) at 1/4 or 3/4 of the room height. However the application will do it's best to align any dual sub stereo system no matter the individual placement of the loudspeakers and subs. Results may vary. Especially in tricky rooms it can make sense to test different positions and see what yields the best results.

 

[ba7777]

Yes the app recommends to place the KH 750s at 1/4 and 3/4 of the room width and (if you can) at 1/4 or 3/4 of the room height. However the application will do it's best to align any dual sub stereo system no matter the individual placement of the loudspeakers and subs. Results may vary. Especially in tricky rooms it can make sense to test different positions and see what yields the best results.

View attachment 132361
View attachment 132360

So the "mono sub" would be the only way for dual subs analog connection?

After dual subs calibration do I need to connect both loudspeakers to one of the subwoofers?

To make it short, is it possible to use the "stereo sub" Variant for analog connection?

If the answer would be negative , then why not?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jj-wohlgemuth]

So the "mono sub" would be the only way for dual subs analog connection?

After dual subs calibration do I need to connect both loudspeakers to one of the subwoofers?

To make it short, is it possible to use the "stereo sub" Variant for analog connection?

If the answer would be negative , then why not?

Thanks in advance.

You don't have to connect both loudspeakers to the same subwoofer. The left loudspeaker can be connected to the left output of the left subwoofer for example and the right loudspeaker can be connected to the right output of the right subwoofer. The outputs of both subwoofers are aligned identically.
The subwoofers themselves however both need to receive the same input signals on both channels (as shown in the drawing above). Both subs sum L+R and then apply the optimized lowpass and the individual alignments. App version 1.2 does not support a setup where the left subwoofer only receives the left channel and the right only the right. From the perspective of the listener both subs act as one (with a higher max. SPL).

 

[ba7777]

You don't have to connect both loudspeakers to the same subwoofer. The left loudspeaker can be connected to the left output of the left subwoofer for example and the right loudspeaker can be connected to the right output of the right subwoofer. The outputs of both subwoofers are aligned identically.
The subwoofers themselves however both need to receive the same input signals on both channels (as shown in the drawing above). Both subs sum L+R and then apply the optimized lowpass and the individual alignments. App version 1.2 does not support a setup where the left subwoofer only receives the left channel and the right only the right. From the perspective of the listener both subs act as one (with a higher max. SPL).

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation.

But IMHO the mono sub method leads to extra hassle for cable arrangement (like custom Y-cable).

Would Neumann kindly consider add the feature supporting stereo sub method to the new version of software in the near future?

 

[audafreak]

I have installed latest version. This version works on my PC correctly. Good job.
Much nicer application. Better signs which monitor is playing, possibility to set SPL level or repeat one step.
What was strange that each monitor was found 2-3 times, don't remember exactly, maybe because I switched page back and forward again and list was not reset and searched again. I just selected first 3 monitors, no problem for me.

Now about alignment. Comparing to previous versions it is very different. The same gear, the same positions of everything (ok, maybe up to 3cm different), no change in the room.
Comparing screenshots from previous versions, graph is very different in bass region <300Hz and before it was almost straight between 200Hz and 10kHz, now there are waves up to +-2dB. See attachment. Left is old v.1.1, right is 1.2.

Also sound is different especially in the middles. It looks like much less phase corrections is applied, something between previous version and iPad application which has no phase correction except delay for sub.
Probably more natural sound but seems like less detailed comparing previous versions. But it can be only my feeling from first day.
My room is normal living room 3.5x5.5m without any special treatment with many books, flowers, carpet and furniture. Monitors 2xKH80DSP 1xKH750DSP placed symmetrically along the long side in a triangle 1.9m and 1m from the front wall.

@jj-wohlgemuth : my recommendation for future updates - would be good to have one more screen after monitor detection with decision switching what I want to do:
1. alignment as it is now
2. only setting parameters like SPL, logo display, power off timeout and sensitivity, ... those, which are now only in iPad application. This independent settings would be very useful.

And later - saving and switching configurations with compatibility between different SW versions. This would be really great.

 

[timpani808]

Hey, im new to digital connections and im aware, that this isn't necessary the right place for my question.
But maybe you guys can help me out real quick:

I have a rme ufx+ and i dont really know what type of cable i need to connect it to the KH750.
And is there a way to connect two KH750s as a stereo setup with my interface?

My first Sub is on the way and now im a little bit panicking. I would appreciate any kind of input.

The only cable i could find is this one:
https://www.thomann.de/de/pro_snake_aes_ebu_spdif_cable_3.htm

 

[astcal]

KH750 takes two types of inputs: (1) regular analogue XLR (left and right), (2) digital BNC.

For the latter, I use the Monoprice RCA/BNC cable:

if you have lots of RCA cables already, try the RCA-to-BNC adapter from Monoprice:

 

[timpani808]

KH750 takes two types of inputs: (1) regular analogue XLR (left and right), (2) digital BNC.

For the latter, I use the Monoprice RCA/BNC cable:

if you have lots of RCA cables already, try the RCA-to-BNC adapter from Monoprice:

The Problem i have is that the UFXs digital output is a single xlr socket. So no Twin Sub Setup for me, because in the Instruction it states no passive Splitters recommended.

I could split my Analog output, but the way i understand it, this way it isnt a stereo setup but a twin mono setup, unless i didnt get it which is not unnlikely.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

From the manual of the KH750:

The Neutrik NADIT BNC-F costs around 55 EUR.

For the second sub i think you could use a toslink-rca-converter for your SPDIF-toslink-output, i think, and route the signal via TotalMix FX correctly - same signal (R+L) to AES + SPDIF if you want mono-sub and correction with MA1, or L -> AES and R to SPDIF if you want stereo subs without MA1?
Not sure if this works, though... Can someone confirm this?

Or you simply use y-cables for analog XLR.

 

[timpani808]

From the manual of the KH750:
View attachment 134193

The Neutrik NADIT BNC-F costs around 55 EUR.

For the second sub i think you could use a toslink-rca-converter for your SPDIF-toslink-output, i think, and route the signal via TotalMix FX correctly - same signal (R+L) to AES + SPDIF if you want mono-sub and correction with MA1, or L -> AES and R to SPDIF if you want stereo subs without MA1?
Not sure if this works, though... Can someone confirm this?

Or you simply use y-cables for analog XLR.

Thank you so much, that is very helpful!!

And yes, i was going to use MA1 with the system.

"Or you simply use y-cables for analog XLR"
Would it be a stereo-sub config. when i do it the y-cable way? And can i just use other outputs of my interface for the second sub?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I don't know the TotalMix-software, but if i understand it correctly i rhink you can use any outputs if you can route the same signal to both subs. The MA1 only works if both subs receive the same signal (=monosub).

The subwoofers themselves however both need to receive the same input signals on both channels (as shown in the drawing above). Both subs sum L+R and then apply the optimized lowpass and the individual alignments. App version 1.2 does not support a setup where the left subwoofer only receives the left channel and the right only the right. From the perspective of the listener both subs act as one (with a higher max. SPL).

 

[timpani808]

I don't know the TotalMix-software, but if i understand it correctly i rhink you can use any outputs if you can route the same signal to both subs. The MA1 only works if both subs receive the same signal (=monosub).

Yes, you right with that. It can route the same signal to different outputs.
I think ill wait with the second one, until i know if its possible to set it up in a stereo way or if the second one improves the bass reproduction significantly.

Thanks for the Info my dude!

 

[ba7777]

My homemade splitter is ready.