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New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

diavolo

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So I noticed that the MA1 Software just got updated, kudos to Neumann for their continued work at improving the software and making it easier to use!
I'm a proud owner of two KH80DSPs and a KH750DSP, it has been a great experience thus far, but I have just one small complaint regarding the automatic alignment process.
Here's the story:

I first went through the automatic alignment process with a focusrite solo3, using(evidently) analog outputs from the soundcard. The calibration persists, as expected, when I swap them with other analogue sources.

However, noticing that KH750 features a digital input, I tried to bypass the DA-AD process between the soundcard and the subwoofer entirely, hooking S/PDIF up to the subwoofer. Doing so resulted in...an awkward silence. there was no output from the system. After ruling out connection issues and other causes, in a frustrated attempt to get sound from the system, I flipped the control mode back to "local". The system played loudly and clearly sans the internal calibration.

So apparently, the digital input was ignored when calibrated under analogue input? Does that mean digital IO and calibration on the KH750 is restricted to devices that feature both a digital out(like AES or S/PDIF) and P48 + microphone preamp? Is there a reason as to why the digital input was ignored after calibration through analogue input? I mean, supporting both types of inputs may result in (allegedly) volume/loudness inaccuracies, but implementing it shouldn't cause any system breaking issues, right? Devices with both a microphone preamp and a digital output are a bit more difficult to come by compared to devices with just one of the two for the average user,

so I'd like to ask jjwohlgemuth, could this issue be addressed in a future firmware or calibration software update?

DjBonoBono, I understand that you are using KH750's digital input, how do you synergize it with MA1 and Neumann's internal calibration?
Yes. Both subwoofers are time aligned individually with respect to the measurement position.

Great news! This looks like a significant improvement in usability. I will try it out this weekend.

View attachment 190141
 
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@diavolo
In the process of calibration, there is an option to select analog / digital / automatic input. Please check, if your system has not been switched to analog only (refer to the latest manual on page 11).
 

DJBonoBobo

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So I noticed that the MA1 Software just got updated, kudos to Neumann for their continued work at improving the software and making it easier to use!
I'm a proud owner of two KH80DSPs and a KH750DSP, it has been a great experience thus far, but I have just one small complaint regarding the automatic alignment process.
Here's the story:

I first went through the automatic alignment process with a focusrite solo3, using(evidently) analog outputs from the soundcard. The calibration persists, as expected, when I swap them with other analogue sources.

However, noticing that KH750 features a digital input, I tried to bypass the DA-AD process between the soundcard and the subwoofer entirely, hooking S/PDIF up to the subwoofer. Doing so resulted in...an awkward silence. there was no output from the system. After ruling out connection issues and other causes, in a frustrated attempt to get sound from the system, I flipped the control mode back to "local". The system played loudly and clearly sans the internal calibration.

So apparently, the digital input was ignored when calibrated under analogue input? Does that mean digital IO and calibration on the KH750 is restricted to devices that feature both a digital out(like AES or S/PDIF) and P48 + microphone preamp? Is there a reason as to why the digital input was ignored after calibration through analogue input? I mean, supporting both types of inputs may result in (allegedly) volume/loudness inaccuracies, but implementing it shouldn't cause any system breaking issues, right? Devices with both a microphone preamp and a digital output are a bit more difficult to come by compared to devices with just one of the two for the average user,

so I'd like to ask jjwohlgemuth, could this issue be addressed in a future firmware or calibration software update?

DjBonoBono, I understand that you are using KH750's digital input, how do you synergize it with MA1 and Neumann's internal calibration?
I use a RME UCX II which has digital outputs and 48V mic input. I don't know if i understand you correctly, but if you want to use the digital input of the KH750 for regular listening you can still use an analog interface for the MA1-calibration, because the calibration is independent from the input. Just make sure input is set to automatic, like @Daemonstration wrote.
For the calibration, you have to use the same interface for mic in and output, AFAIK. I don't know the technical reasons, but i suspect it has to do with the automatic volume setting for the calibration and/or possible delay issues.
 

TurtlePaul

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For the calibration, you have to use the same interface for mic in and output, AFAIK. I don't know the technical reasons, but i suspect it has to do with the automatic volume setting for the calibration and/or possible delay issues.
For some DSPs, this can be beneficial because using one interface means the input and output clocks are synchronized. e.g. not 44.1k vs. 48k, can't have one clock run slightly fast, same jitter/clock drift on input and output, clocks are in phase.
 

DJBonoBobo

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This looks good. I'm tempted to wait until you've given it a try, based on past experience...
This looks promising, indeed. Yes, DJ, give it a go! :cool:
Sorry, i did not make it today. I installed the software and everything seem to work, my old setups/speakers were found immidiately (better than version 1.33), but i did not have time to make new measurements (the new options for saving aligments do not work until you have recalibrated with 1.4).
 

badboygolf16v

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I had some free time this afternoon to give the new version a try. Seems to work ok and is nice to be able to finally save a calibration. I didn't have any issues with network location of the speakers and duplicates being shown as I did with the last version. The led brightness setting is working now and persists beyond a speaker restart.

I did have problems getting my setup recognized via ASIO, but this may be my fault I'm not sure. I use an EMU 0404 USB as a standalone mic pre connected via coax SPDIF to an ADI-2 Pro FS R which is connected to my laptop via USB. I couldn't get this sending sound to the speakers with ADI-2 regardless of the mode I tried, so I used analogue from the 0404 to the ADI-2 and that worked fine. I have had it working in the past but I couldn't be bothered to investigate further today, life's too short.

I couldn't work out how to delete a speaker setup or calibration, anyone done that? @jj-wohlgemuth is this possible?

Overall MA 1 worked without issue, so I'm pretty happy. The Neumann system has nowhere near the functionality of Genelec SAM, but it's not designed to. The most it will deal with is a 2.2 system, and for those use cases I now think it has reached a sufficient level of reliability and functionality to be recommended without reservation (the only caveat being if the ASIO issue wasn't my fault...). A Neumann setup is a lot cheaper than a Genelec, and sits in a nice spot with regards to price/performance.
 

badboygolf16v

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It's quite cool watching the ADI-2 spectrum analyser when the test tones play.
 

audafreak

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Last week I touched Neumann Control in Ipad by accident, it started and reseted my MA1 calibration. WTF... So I had to recalibrate with v 1.3. Next day I found that there is new version 1.4 - 2nd WTF... So yesterday I started again with v 1.4. For the first time it hanged for some reason and I had to kill it, then again the same. After reboot it could not find one KH80 monitor. I switched off/on my RME UCX2 and monitors. Next time it found all monitors but for some reason could not set output levels (with monitors muted) - monitors connected via AES, RME device showed output correctly, other sw played correctly via this output, only MA1 not.

5th start worked in the end and all next starts were also OK.
Alignment was ok, at last we have possibility to switch between different alignments/equalizer setting like on Ipad. Very good.

But possibility to delete selected alignment is also essential and very simple to do function.
Also I would prefer all monitor settings on the same page, now it is on two different.
And please, add also settings for standby like in Ipad.
Also possibility to mute each monitor separately would be nice, like in ipad.

Please change Neuman Control to set monitors only after pressing some button, not immediately automatically after start. That is very bad and makes problems. It is also only very small change.

And questions for @jj-wohlgemuth - is it somehow possible to determine delay/latency after calibration? It is good to know when using multichannel.
And another one which is very important to me - KH750 digital input is up to 192kHz. On which frequency its internal DSP is running? On input SR or is input resampled to fixed 48kHz or some other SR? In KH80 DSP is running fixed on 48kHz, but KH750? Does it have sense to send 192kHz to KH750 or better resample to 48kHz on PC. And what about 44kHz - is it somehow resampled to 48kHz?
Generally how KH750 deals with different digital input sample rates?
 
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jesso

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Hi All,
Just attempted to calibrate my KH80s using the MA1 software and mic.
Unfortunately, I can't get past the page where you select what type of network you are on.... the software just crashes.
Is this to do with being on a new Mac with the M1 pro and Monterey?
Many thanks,
 

badboygolf16v

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I used Windows, so can't comment on the Mac. I've got Bootcamp so could give it a try, but it's a bit of a hassle as my speakers aren't permanently network connected. Also, it's a 2013 MBP so not comparable, but might give some pointers. Let's see if someone else with a Mac can help first.
 

jesso

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I used Windows, so can't comment on the Mac. I've got Bootcamp so could give it a try, but it's a bit of a hassle as my speakers aren't permanently network connected. Also, it's a 2013 MBP so not comparable, but might give some pointers. Let's see if someone else with a Mac can help first.
Thanks. A bit of a pain but, I Am trying it with an older machine …. Let’s see if that works.
 

jesso

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I've made it a lot further with my old Mac!
When I get as far as "Output Signal Level Adaptation", I keep getting the message "Adaptation Failed, Please check your audio interface and try again"
I've tried everything I can think of with regards to changing the settings on the interface.
Help!
 

audafreak

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I had the same, try to restart pc, interface, monitors. Even several times. Unfortunately MA1 is very unstable sw, probably many unhandled exceptions.
 

jesso

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I had the same, try to restart pc, interface, monitors. Even several times. Unfortunately MA1 is very unstable sw, probably many unhandled exceptions.
Thank you!
Perseverance pays off.
I got it to work. It's just that the software is sensitive to the output level of your audio interface and I kept missing the mark.
The speakers sound so good now.
Question -
If I switch them off "network" and back to manual adjustment, can I A/B the difference between calibrated and non calibrated?
What I'm really asking is, will the speakers "forget" their DSP if I mess with the dip switches at the back. I would be curious to A/B the results of the DSP.
Many thanks.
 

jesso

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I've been listening to them all day.
They are now a game changer for mixing for me, I'm hearing a lot of stuff I wasn't before, and a lot of problems in my mixes.
The only downside is that now I am not enjoying casual music listening on them so much haha
I'm looking for a recommendation for a 2nd set of complimentary monitors..... something that will be more for casual listening, but that could be used to check mixes on. Maybe a bigger box, something more relaxed and fun sounding. Closer to a home stereo set up but still a studio monitor. Just wondering what other people are using as a 2nd set. Thanks!
 

ba7777

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Question -
If I switch them off "network" and back to manual adjustment, can I A/B the difference between calibrated and non calibrated?
What I'm really asking is, will the speakers "forget" their DSP if I mess with the dip switches at the back. I would be curious to A/B the results of the DSP.
Many thanks.
Actually I had done this several times before and the result was good.
You can simply use the switch to toggle between calibrated status and the untouched one.
 

audafreak

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For those using KH750 via digital input.
Did you compare the sound of digital input with analog input on some high quality recordings? Both 44kHz and hires?
Were both inputs the same or one somewhat better?
My experience is that analog seems to me maybe cleaner even if it has DA and AD more conversions. Is it only my ilusion or you have similar experience?
I talk about practical experience not teoretical things, those are known to me.
 

DJBonoBobo

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For those using KH750 via digital input.
Did you compare the sound of digital input with analog input on some high quality recordings? Both 44kHz and hires?
Were both the same or one somewhat better?
My experience is that analog seems to me maybe cleaner even if it has DA and AD more conversions. Is it only my ilusion or you have similar experience?
I talk about practical experience not teoretical things, those are known to me.

I have not experienced any differences in sound quality between digital in or analog in.

Question -
If I switch them off "network" and back to manual adjustment, can I A/B the difference between calibrated and non calibrated?
What I'm really asking is, will the speakers "forget" their DSP if I mess with the dip switches at the back. I would be curious to A/B the results of the DSP.
Many thanks.
I recommend reading the manuals of the speakers and the MA-1 instructions. They are very detailed.
 

audafreak

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I have not experienced any differences in sound quality between digital in or analog in.
On which kind of music did you tried? Was it high quality recording of some acoustic music or some pop/ rock or electronic music? I don't hear the difference on any kind of music, some records are the same, and of course only if my mind is fresh, not when I am tired.
Biggest difference seams to me acoustic DSD played via DAC to analog vs. converted to 88kHz and played via digital.
 

audafreak

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@DjBonoBobo And please - on which input sample rate did you tried? This is very important.
 
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