New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[NeoZs99]

I

I don't think the isp is relevant, only the local network has to support ipv6, afaik. Don't know details about the configuration, though.

I tried most of the common solutions..shit didn't work. Apparently its a common prob on windows 10 too..

 

[Killingbeans]

Sorry if this has already been answered:

If I buy a KH 750 DSP, can I just download the free software and use a UMIK-1/2 for the setup?

Or is it designed specifically for use with the MA 1 mic?

 

[NeoZs99]

Sorry if this has already been answered:

If I buy a KH 750 DSP, can I just download the free software and use a UMIK-1/2 for the setup?

Or is it designed specifically for use with the MA 1 mic?

I guess you need the ma1. There's a specific serial number associated to it you'll need

 

[Killingbeans]

Had a feeling it was like that... Really sucks

I know it's a PRO product and that they probably assume the buyer already has an audio interface, but I hate having to buy one just for that one thing.

 

[Lemarchand]

Had a feeling it was like that... Really sucks

I know it's a PRO product and that they probably assume the buyer already has an audio interface, but I hate having to buy one just for that one thing.

You actually buy the mic and they provide for free the software instead of just selling the software. In my eyes this is a fair deal since you also have a mic of a killer brand in that way.

 

[Killingbeans]

Sure, but I'd much rather use a USB mic. Even if it means I'd have to give up a "free" XLR mic.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I guess you need the ma1. There's a specific serial number associated to it you'll need

Somewhere in this thread is information how to use a generic serial and decipher the other code to generate a calibration. You could use that to access the software with a different mic. So if you already have a neutral measurement mic like an earthworks you could work around buying the MA1. But it doesnt work with an usb mic.

 

[Killingbeans]

Somewhere in this thread is information how to use a generic serial and decipher the other code to generate a calibration. You could use that to access the software with a different mic. So if you already have a neutral measurement mic like an earthworks you could work around buying the MA1.

Awesome!

But it doesnt work with an usb mic.

Why is that? Is it because of the mic calibration files?

EDIT: Dug around the thread a little and found the answer. So... now way of inputting a calibration file manually. Thanks Neumann

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I
I tried most of the common solutions..shit didn't work. Apparently its a common prob on windows 10 too..

Do you use version 1.3.3 of the MA1-software? That one solved all the network problems for me.

 

[NeoZs99]

Need help!!!

Just got KH 750 and MA 1 today and trying to run room calibration with my KH 80. But I can't get the software to work. Below are my setup and steps done:

(1) Hardwares: PC with Windows 10 + Focusrite Solo;
(2) Networking: all hardwired Ethernet to the same router
(3) downloaded MA 1 software version 1.1.1.334
(4) went through all steps but stuck at "Select your studio monitors" ( see screenshot )
(5) read from Neumann FAQ troubleshooting, turned on UPnP on my router. factory reset. But still doesn't work.

View attachment 129606




I tested KH 750 alone and see how it is connected to the network. I showed up in the "Attached Devices" briefly and then disappeared as shown from below screenshots. Not sure this is expected behavior:

right after factory reset:

View attachment 129607






after a 20 seconds or so:

View attachment 129608

That's the exact problem I'm having.. have you tried using pc again?
I'm using windows 10 with a motu m4

 

[NeoZs99]

Do you use version 1.3.3 of the MA1-software? That one solved all the network problems for me.

I've been trying with the latest version. Pretty sure it's with the ipv6

 

[Lemarchand]

I've been trying with the latest version. Pretty sure it's with the ipv6

One question, maybe irrelevant maybe not. Are you using analogue or digital connection? If it is the later, use the analogue, then try again. I almost got crazy myself I am using both. For some reason when it is locked in digital, the software does not find the speakers.

 

[NeoZs99]

One question, maybe irrelevant maybe not. Are you using analogue or digital connection? If it is the later, use the analogue, then try again. I almost got crazy myself I am using both. For some reason when it is locked in digital, the software does not find the speakers.

It's analogue.. Maybe I need to configure my router instead. I've got zero clue what to change in there under ipv6 setings

 

[Takanaka]

Interesting, I’m trying it out soon coupling the mic with a Motu M4. I have to say the KH 750 works tremendously, makes the monitors work much less even if it’s a 3-way like the KH 310. But it adds another dimension of problems to my somewhat challenging room.

 

[water6]

I just saw that you can download the cal file from Neumann directly: https://en-de.neumann.com/ma-1#technical-data
On the Neumann site it says that this curve should be added to an measurement, but an REW calubration curve is subtracted from the measurement, so I guess all gains should be multiplied by -1 when importing in to REW?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I just saw that you can download the cal file from Neumann directly: https://en-de.neumann.com/ma-1#technical-data
On the Neumann site it says that this curve should be added to an measurement, but an REW calubration curve is subtracted from the measurement, so I guess all gains should be multiplied by -1 when importing in to REW?

Great, that seems to be new. Indeed it looks like it has to be inverted first for REW (1/A).

The "new" cal file is a bit different from the one i calculated based on this thread - 1/A (blue) is the one provided by Neumann:

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I wonder if Neumann will ever release a free-to-use version of Neumann Control for Mac/Windows. It’s infuriating that I have to borrow an iPad in order to tweak my EQ.

If they’re not planning on doing so, I wonder how much work it’d take to reverse engineer the communication protocol from the software to the KH750 and reimplement it in order to be able to tweak the EQ from a computer for free. The MA1 app appears to be written in C# and ILSpy can cleanly decompile it... hmm... I’ll start taking a look this week if I have time. From a first glance looks like mDNS is involved for discovery and communications are AES encrypted but I found the key already.

EDIT: did some more digging - haven't tested yet but looks like the mic serial validation routine simply checks to see if the serial starts with a 6 and is ten digits long. The requested "microphone code" actually encodes the calibration; it contains the gain values for a series of preset frequency/Q bell filters. In other words, an individual mic's calibration is not downloaded off a server somewhere. This seems to be overlaid on top of a reference "golden mic" calibration:

View attachment 120230

More details on the microphone code: the first five characters are the encoded gain values for one of the filters each, while the sixth character is a checksum. If you want to try this software out (with the "golden mic" reference curve and no additional correction) you can use any 10-digit serial starting with 6 and microphone code 777773.

The five filters the gain values apply to, in order, are these:
View attachment 120235

The formula to derive the gain values:
Convert the first to fifth characters individually from hexadecimal to decimal (0-9 stay the same, A=10, B=11, C=12, D=13, E=14, F=15).
Subtract 7 from each result.
For characters one and two: multiply by 0.125.
For character three: multiply by 0.18.
For characters four and five: Multiply by 0.5.
This gives you the gain value for the corresponding filter in the list above.

This info should help anyone that wants to calculate their individual mic's calibration curve - take the golden mic curve and add the five filters encoded in the microphone code to it.


So, curiosity got the better of me and I decided to give the software a shot, but man, what a mistake... sounds much worse than my manual calibration. Basically gave me a much bumpier version of my own calibration. I know that the results with the actual MA1 mic could be different, but my measurement mic is pretty flat under 5 kHz which is where all the corrections are, so I wouldn't expect much of a difference other than a shelf of a dB or two under 200 Hz due to the preset "golden mic" calibration curve. At least it's good to know that my target response is pretty similar, but now I'm going to need to either borrow an iPad or reverse engineer the communication protocol to redo my manual calibration.

View attachment 120269
Ignore comb filtering artifact at 10kHz, this was because both speakers were measured simultaneously and the mic wasn't perfectly centered. I accepted the target curve the software suggested, other than adjusting it >1 kHz so that it would leave the treble untouched. Huge peak at 41 Hz was not addressed, and the crossover/delay settings I chose in my manual calibration filled in the 100-200 Hz dips, while the MA1's did not. On the plus side, knocking off the peak at 1 kHz improved midrange naturalness and clarity.

View attachment 120270
Interestingly, seems like the MA1 software decided to invert the polarity of the subwoofer, since it stays at about 180 degrees phase. This does net less phase rotation, but...

View attachment 120271
The group delay is not any better whatsoever. As can be concluded from this graph and the FR, the bass sounds much sloppier now.

Overall, for someone that doesn't have a good understanding of how to set the delay and generate their own EQ, the software can get you about halfway there in much less time, so I see the appeal. I don't know why, but I was expecting a result better than my manual calibration, which didn't turn out to be the case. It's still much better than how my setup sounds uncorrected though.

For reference, that was the post by @hyperplanar i used for calculating my own cal-file before (green in my post above).

 

[Chromatic]

Hello Guys
I would like to request your help! I sent a message to Neumann but in the mean time you may have some experiences similar and some advices so here i am…

I am gonna work in my studio with Adam S3V.
I heard them at Shop with 1 Neumann 750DSP and it was sounding great.
The configuration was not optimum as i think the S3V were used Full Range and the Subwoofer had a separate output directed to it and then cut at 80hz but it was sounding already great together.

I dont want to Eq the S3V with the Neumann app (because its not made for it and also it seems there is a roll off at 20khz?) but i would like to do so for the subs. Is it possible to do the M1 setup (automatic Eq, time align…) for only the subs ? without having the monitors connected to the sub ?

In my case the Adam S3V would be in AES and the Subs in Analog.

I have a Grace Design M905 which is very useful, you can have the separate output for the Subs and mute, change their volume or solo them on the fly, but there is no filter for the main speakers to cut them Under 80hz for exemple, although on the Adam there is a Low Shelf eq that can be set to any frequency but the slope is only 12db do you think that would be enough?
The Adam go until 32hz (-3db but start to roll off at 40hz) so i would have like to cut the sub a bit lower than 80hz like maybe 60 or 50, is it possible or the cut frequency is set at 80hz ?

I really liked the sound of the sub but i understand it is meant for their own brand.
Adam sub do not have advanced Eq to compensate a bit for the room and they are Ported so i am worried they would not sound as tight and textured… what do you think ?

At worst i could do like the shop did and use the 750DSP as “normal” sub and maybe apply some Eq with the iPad App or if its possible the desktop app but in that case i miss out on some things that i already pay a “premium” for. (I mean Adam Subs are cheaper as they are more simple design).

Any help would be awesome because i am a bit lost as i had to order them already because there was a special offer with the M1 Mic where i leave but they will be delivered middle of January so i can still change my plan if it sound too complicated to use them with non Neumann monitors.
In which case i might get 2 Adam Sub 10 mk2 and call it a day but… they dont go until 18hz also… even the adam 12 doesnt… which is surprising but…

Thank you so much

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I dont want to Eq the S3V with the Neumann app (because its not made for it and also it seems there is a roll off at 20khz?) but i would like to do so for the subs. Is it possible to do the M1 setup (automatic Eq, time align…) for only the subs ? without having the monitors connected to the sub ?

No, because time aligning means to set a delay for the monitors. If they are not connected to the subs, it can´t do this. You could either try the automatic alignment for the whole system or use the iPad-app for manually EQing the sub and setting a delay for the monitors without EQing the monitors (if they are connected to the sub). If you don´t want to connect the monitors to the sub you could still use the iPad-app for manually EQing the sub. You can use the MA1-mic with the calibration file with REW, but not the MA1-software, AFAIK.

Edit: I never tried using the MA1-software with sub only, though. When i think about it, i don´t know if this works.

 

[Chromatic]

No, because time aligning means to set a delay for the monitors. If they are not connected to the subs, it can´t do this. You could either try the automatic alignment for the whole system or use the iPad-app for manually EQing the sub and setting a delay for the monitors without EQing the monitors (if they are connected to the sub). If you don´t want to connect the monitors to the sub you could still use the iPad-app for manually EQing the sub. You can use the MA1-mic with the calibration file with REW, but not the MA1-software, AFAIK.

Edit: I never tried using the MA1-software with sub only, though. When i think about it, i don´t know if this works.

Thank you for your response i really appreciate it !
Thats interesting, i thought maybe you could just MA1 the sub only but if not, its indeed very focused on working with only Neumann speakers (which is understandable although i guess many peoples would be interested also in the Sub Only).

The Adam S3V do have a delay on them that can be set from 1 to 5ms i wonder is its enough to time align with the subs then…

If the Sub and the Speakers Are exactly on the same plane (like the Speakers on the Sub for exemple), there would be no time alignement needed ?

I am mostly interested in the Sub Eq capabilities to at least correct what is possible on it, so if its doable with just the iPad and a profile made in REW i guess that would be better than nothing already... even if its not as easy.

The crossover of the 750dsp is fixed at 80hz ?
The Adam are supposed to go until 32hz so maybe a crossover of around 40 or 50 would be better ? (In which case an Adam sub might be more flexible, i saw the SUB 12 for exemple have a crossover range from 50 to 200hz i think… )

I see the 750dsp is quoted at 95db 1m (0.5%) do you think it would be too much of a mis match with the Adam being quoted at 124db 1m ? Although i monitor mostly at 75/85db and might go sometimes to a bit more i dont see myself ever reaching 124db! In that case is it ok if the maximum listening volume match the limit of the Subwoofer ?
Adam sub 12 is quoted at 115db 1m (under 1%) would it be better ?

Do you think for a studio where there is only 1 listening position and having the crossover cut at a lower value, 1 sub would be enough ? I always prefer 2 but it get expensive and i wonder if its necessary when There is only 1 listening position…

I am sorry for all the questions

Thank you!