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New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

DjBonoBobo

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Another comparison i posted in this thread some time ago:

I made some before/after measurements again, but this time the MA 1-correction vs. local mode (no EQ).

Single sweep measurements at LP, 1.60 meters distance.

KH310 without KH750 and without EQ vs. KH310+750+MA 1 (Average of L+R)

Averages
View attachment 104817

Sub only; local mode (no EQ) vs network mode (EQ set by MA 1):
View attachment 104818

EDIT: Additionally, comparison of L+R (local vs. network)

View attachment 104842



I tried to attach an mdat-file of the 8 measurement (L+R local, L+sub + R+sub network, L+sub + R+sub local, sub local, sub network) if someone is interested in comparison of phase, GD and so on. But i don´t know how to do that - the filesize is always too large, even a single measurement.
If someone knows how to share it, you can download it here, but it´s limited to 5 downloads only: https://www.file2send.eu/de/downloa...ztNePw48hga7icEni2cQyMChOKwT0NgTuAZuXNaTigySY
 

v3kt0r

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Yes, I see the same, My LP is 1.9m, room a bit bigger 3.5x5.5m but monitors are along the longer side 1m from front wall, wall with 7cm dumping panel behind me - very bad position especially for bass response but nothing else is possible.
@v3kt0r Do you have also screenshot with not activated calibration? Default system response. Aligned seems really perfect on bass side comparing to mine.
I had to raise around 20 Hz a bit.
Here is mine:
before
View attachment 144227

after
View attachment 144228

I set lower SPL in monitor because I can have higher signal out of DAC (lower noise, higher resolution) and higher signal in KH750 AD conversion (again higher resolution).
And it is also safer if I send full signal to monitors by accident.
Are there any reasons not to do it so?

Yes, here is my screenshot without calibration. Did you think to reposition your sub or add some bass traps for your room? I don't use bass traps yet but thinking to get some in future. With my understanding we should treat our room with maximum appropriate treatment first so calibration done by MA1 is minimal. Anyway, mids and highs look much better in your room before calibration comparing to mine.

1627565320976.png
 
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ernestcarl

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I'm glad you called it the way it is because i hardly think the differences would be noticeable. :p

Yeah... the EQ I put there is more to serve my imaginary fantasy that I'm "fixing" something that needs fixing. Truth is, all one usually needs there are the broad HF shelving filters as an overall tone control. For example, for far-field listening I like to increase the HF shelving a bit -- the opposite goes for nearfield use.

In fact, if I were to EQ for more than one seating position in this room -- my very nearfield desk seat and the couch far back behind the room -- all I would require are three 'peak' PEQ filters and maybe one shelving for the HF treble:

1627659357749.png


Result:
1627660322606.png


Every correction potentially can cause another issue somewhere else in the room. Those who only have one 'fixed' primary listening seat may not think about these things deeply at all.


If I were to use my complete nearfield EQ with the sub... and listening further away in the couch, it quickly becomes apparent that the bass is nowhere near flat as in the main listening nearfield desk seat:

1627660592001.png


The sub bass is now annoying and way overpowering. :eek:

*A good compromise may be to eschew the sub altogether for most listening tasks and background music playing.
 

richard12511

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To me it sounds more neutral and "correct" after the calibration. When i tried Dirac Live for the whole spectrum i never had that feeling. So i think they know what they are doing.
Would be interesting to learn more about the algorithms they use and how they "decide" which corrections are made.

Still, by boosting the highs of a completely neutral speaker like that, there is no doubt that what you are hearing post EQ is no longer neutral.
 

DjBonoBobo

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Still, by boosting the highs of a completely neutral speaker like that, there is no doubt that what you are hearing post EQ is no longer neutral.

Ok, again, then. This is what the MA1-correction looks like in my system when i measure via MMM (dark = with MA1):

1627715948901.png


There is no "boosting the highs", only some corrections up to 500Hz (room modes, SBIR, desk- and screen-reflections) and a small reduction around 1khz. It only looks like boosting the highs, if 1 khz is the reference point to compare the graphs.
The correction seems reasonable if you look at the measurements of what you call a "completely neutral speaker":

1627715817314.png

1627715839453.png


To, me, the small correction around 1khz seems necessary because even the KH310 is not "completely" neutral (edit: to clarify what i mean: not completely neutral at the LP in my room around 1 khz, perhaps because of the wider directivity in that region; Neumann will know better than me or you).

Also, this:

 
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audafreak

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Did you think to reposition your sub or add some bass traps for your room? I don't use bass traps yet but thinking to get some in future.
With my understanding we should treat our room with maximum appropriate treatment first so calibration done by MA1 is minimal.
Anyway, mids and highs look much better in your room before calibration comparing to mine.
I don't have much place where to place SW so no other position tested. And this one is recomanded by Neumann.
The same with bass traps - no one. But the room is relatively well damped on highs and mids, cabinets with books, carpet, lot of bigger flowers, special 5mm thick structured soft spraying on the wall. I just had to place damping panel behind me to cancel the only first reflections from the back wall. Because of monitor placement and directivity there are no other important reflections on mids and highs. Monitors pointing straight down the axis to my ears.
You "before" curve is really wild and strange. Maybe lack of damping?

picture-20210731-1132-001.png
 

richard12511

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Ok, again, then. This is what the MA1-correction looks like in my system when i measure via MMM (dark = with MA1):

View attachment 144609

There is no "boosting the highs", only some corrections up to 500Hz (room modes, SBIR, desk- and screen-reflections) and a small reduction around 1khz. It only looks like boosting the highs, if 1 khz is the reference point to compare the graphs.
The correction seems reasonable if you look at the measurements of what you call a "completely neutral speaker":

View attachment 144605
View attachment 144606

To, me, the small correction around 1khz seems necessary because even the KH310 is not "completely" neutral (edit: to clarify what i mean: not completely neutral at the LP in my room around 1 khz, perhaps because of the wider directivity in that region; Neumann will know better than me or you).

Also, this:


Reducing the lows without also reducing the highs is the same thing as boosting the highs. This is why GLM sounds bright(imo) with default correction at 3.5m, and why I have to go in and boost lows afterwards to restore neutral timbre. MA-1 does seem to allow some boost, though(around 100Hz), so it's a little different.
 

v3kt0r

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I don't have much place where to place SW so no other position tested. And this one is recomanded by Neumann.
The same with bass traps - no one. But the room is relatively well damped on highs and mids, cabinets with books, carpet, lot of bigger flowers, special 5mm thick structured soft spraying on the wall. I just had to place damping panel behind me to cancel the only first reflections from the back wall. Because of monitor placement and directivity there are no other important reflections on mids and highs. Monitors pointing straight down the axis to my ears.
You "before" curve is really wild and strange. Maybe lack of damping?

View attachment 144621

Probably because of multiple issues. I've been in this apartment for 3 months only and floors kinda wobbly and lack or damping for sure.

Btw, did you try to bring your sub on right side? You never know, it could change the result ;)

1627928236558.png
 

audafreak

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Btw, did you try to bring your sub on right side? You never know, it could change the result ;)
I know but in fact there is no place there - big flower there or better small tree :). Generally more things in the room then on the picture. And everything is relatively symmetrical so I don't excpect big change.
But I am thinking about upgrading the set. There are 2 possibilities how to start: 2nd SW or multichannel 4.1
 

CtheArgie

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Question for these experts. Based on Neumann's "new" web posting, it seems that you can use TWO KH750 subwoofers with Neumann satellites using the MA-1.
https://en-de.neumann.com/ma-1
Have any of you used the KH310 with 2 KH750 and the MA-1?

I am getting my KH310s this week and wondered of the value of adding one or 2 750s. I know that you can give a "balanced" subjective opinion and/or measurement based.

What does Neumann mean by "network switch"? Can I connect the speakers, subwoofers and MA-1 with an RME ADI-DAC or I need something else? (I have a mac mini for the music connected tot he RME)

Thanks!
 

badboygolf16v

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The network switch is an Ethernet switch or router.

I can't comment on KH 310s, but I do have 2 x KH80 and 2 x KH 750 aligned with MA 1.

The 2 x KH 750 replaced 1 x KH 805. The KH 805 was aligned using REW and the back panel controls - no DSP room correction.

I was concerned before I made the change, because on paper the KH 805 is better than 2 x KH 750. I needn't have worried. In my room the 2 x KH 750 and MA 1 are better.

I initially used an ADI-2 DAC which requires splitter cables and that worked fine.

I just got an ADI-2 Pro FS R which is a better solution as it has two balanced analogue outputs.

I'm waiting for some cables and a Mutec MC-1.1+ to arrive then I'll use the ADI-2 Pro's digital out.

Benefits of KH 750 with KH 310 are frequency response extension to below 20Hz and linear phase crossover for the KH 310.
 

Frgirard

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The network switch is an Ethernet switch or router.

I can't comment on KH 310s, but I do have 2 x KH80 and 2 x KH 750 aligned with MA 1.

The 2 x KH 750 replaced 1 x KH 805. The KH 805 was aligned using REW and the back panel controls - no DSP room correction.

I was concerned before I made the change, because on paper the KH 805 is better than 2 x KH 750. I needn't have worried. In my room the 2 x KH 750 and MA 1 are better.

I initially used an ADI-2 DAC which requires splitter cables and that worked fine.

I just got an ADI-2 Pro FS R which is a better solution as it has two balanced analogue outputs.

I'm waiting for some cables and a Mutec MC-1.1+ to arrive then I'll use the ADI-2 Pro's digital out.

Benefits of KH 750 with KH 310 are frequency response extension to below 20Hz and linear phase crossover for the KH 310.
The crossover of the kh310 stays analog.
The kh310 has a better spl in bass frequencies than the kh750
The extention to 20hz without the spl is useless.
The kh750 is a little subwoofer for the kh80DSP for little room in near field.
 

Matias

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I chose to correct my KH 80 DSP with FIR in software and keep my phase linear.
 

DjBonoBobo

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DjBonoBobo

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Thanks everyone for objectively and thoroughly confusing me! Now I’m sure that I don’t know what to do.
:):p

Don't let Frgigard confuse you. The KH750 is a small sub for nearfield, yes. If you take two, they can go twice as loud as one. Two subs are always better than one (better distribution of bass in the room). It depends on your room, distance and personal needs if you "need" two. But in most cases you use the KH80, 1 KH750 should be enough. You can always start with one and see if you need a second.
Most important benefit is not the 20hz extension but more smooth upper bass in the 70-100Hz area.
 

CtheArgie

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Thanks @DjBonoBobo ! Where I will have them now I will not need a subwoofer (me thinks). It is a small room and they will replace Eve Audio SC207 which sound great there. But, we will be moving to Belgium and I will bring the KH310 as the primary "music" speakers. I have no idea how our home will be. But, because I do like good bass, I always prefer to have subwoofers. My main speakers do produce a lot of bass (well controlled and REW'd). But I can't take the "coffins" with us.
The Neumann information shows connecting 2x750 via XLR as stereo and from the 750s to the 310s. But I am a bit intimidated with the MA-1 requirements. Mac mini to RME to 750s to 310s appears to be my intended system.
Sometimes, you have to take a chance!
Really appreciated!
 
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