New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[DJBonoBobo]

because in the Instruction it states no passive Splitters recommended.

Do you remember where you read this? I think i read this somewhere, too, but can´t find it again.

I am considering buying a second KH750 and a RME UFX and wonder what the best configuration would be. I think/hope, i could connect sub A to AES out and sub B to SPDIF out and tell TotalMix to send the same signal to both outputs (and hopefully the MA 1 software will work that way...(?)), but i don´t know if this would be the best option. So i have more or less the same question as you, only a smaller RME interface.

 

[HerbertWest]

The outputs of both subwoofers are aligned identically.
.

@jj-wohlgemuth, please, I’d have a question: will the two subwoofers be aligned by MA-1 to emit sound at the same time, and behave like a PWBA (Plane Wave Bass Array), or aligned to have their sound arrive at the same time at the listener position (I.e possibly have a delay between them, depending on their position to the listener)?

(I hope that the above makes sense)

 

[jj-wohlgemuth]

@jj-wohlgemuth, please, I’d have a question: will the two subwoofers be aligned by MA-1 to emit sound at the same time, and behave like a PWBA (Plane Wave Bass Array), or aligned to have their sound arrive at the same time at the listener position (I.e possibly have a delay between them, depending on their position to the listener)?

(I hope that the above makes sense)

Yes. Both subwoofers are time aligned individually with respect to the measurement position.

 

[NickH]

Yes. Both subwoofers are time aligned individually with respect to the measurement position.

Hi there- I have a pair of analog KH310s for home studio mixing and am looking to add one or two KH750 subs . I mainly make backing tracks for gigging and always sum to mono the bass end mix below 200 hz using nugen vst in DAW to get more live punch and match my gigging Bose systems sub spec.

My mixing room is well treated and I currently use sonarworks . Dimensions are 3m x 6m with an angled ceiling .

I would be really grateful for some views on the following -

Would adding one or two KH750's with the DSP to include KH30's?increase punch and low end definition ?

would one 750 be sufficient ?- I mix fairly loud on occasions but not the majority of the time .

If I end up with one KH750 to set up using MA1 do I just need an ethernet port on my laptop and lead rather than network connection to my router ?

If i want to set up two 750's with MA1 am I correct in thinking I need to be able to wire into my router .

My problem maybe that my music shed is down the bottom of the garden and the broadband router is in the house. I do have wi-fi in the shed .

thanks in anticipation of views and help .

best wishes

Nick

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Would adding one or two KH750's with the DSP to include KH30's?increase punch and low end definition ?

That would be easier to answer if you posted a measurement of the frequency response at your listening position.

would one 750 be sufficient ?- I mix fairly loud on occasions but not the majority of the time .

What do you mean with "fairly loud" (dB?) and how far away are you from the front wall? You can look at the measurements of the KH750 (measurement no 7 here: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/9395/download + 1 sub means +6dB, also placed close to a wall means more dB, it hink additional +6dB). Personally i would say, just try one and if it´s not sufficient, simply add a second.

If I end up with one KH750 to set up using MA1 do I just need an ethernet port on my laptop and lead rather than network connection to my router ?

If i want to set up two 750's with MA1 am I correct in thinking I need to be able to wire into my router .

My problem maybe that my music shed is down the bottom of the garden and the broadband router is in the house. I do have wi-fi in the shed .

The KH750s have to be connected to the same network as the computer you are doing the measurements with, but only for the time you are doing measurements. I use: router -> wifi -> repeater -> LAN -> switch -> LAN -> devices (PC, KH750), but i also works if the PC is connected directly to the router via wifi.

 

[Frgirard]

Hi there- I have a pair of analog KH310s for home studio mixing and am looking to add one or two KH750 subs . I mainly make backing tracks for gigging and always sum to mono the bass end mix below 200 hz using nugen vst in DAW to get more live punch and match my gigging Bose systems sub spec.
Nick

if you look at the specifications of the kh750 in terms of spl you will see that it is inferior to the kh310 under 50Hz.

I see this association coming back several times and it is incomprehensible

 

[thewas]

SPL is just one aspect though, by adding one or even better more subs you can get a better modal distribution, get rid of some SBIRs and reduce IMD, here from a Neumann paper:

Source: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7950/download

 

[Frgirard]

SPL is just one aspect though, by adding one or even better more subs you can get a better modal distribution, get rid of some SBIRs and reduce IMD, here from a Neumann paper:

View attachment 136469
Source: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7950/download

The spl level in bass frequency is essential to have a decent dynamique and
a balanced frequency response.
what is the point of degrading the bass level of the KH310?

for the rest of your post, you don't teach me anything. I used in the past with my k+h O300 a KH810....bla bla bla.

 

[thewas]

The spl level in bass frequency is essential to have a decent dynamique and
a balanced frequency response.
what is the point of degrading the bass level of the KH310?

The reasons I wrote above, less upper bass IMD (which is usually more audible than more low bass HD), less bass dips, less position dependent bass.

bla bla bla.

I have the feeling ASR attracts lately people with questionable social skills, nevertheless I wish you a nice weekend.

 

[NickH]

That would be easier to answer if you posted a measurement of the frequency response at your listening position.



What do you mean with "fairly loud" (dB?) and how far away are you from the front wall? You can look at the measurements of the KH750 (measurement no 7 here: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/9395/download + 1 sub means +6dB, also placed close to a wall means more dB, it hink additional +6dB). Personally i would say, just try one and if it´s not sufficient, simply add a second.



The KH750s have to be connected to the same network as the computer you are doing the measurements with, but only for the time you are doing measurements. I use: router -> wifi -> repeater -> LAN -> switch -> LAN -> devices (PC, KH750), but i also works if the PC is connected directly to the router via wifi.

Hi Bono Bobo , thanks for responding .

I have attached a Sonarworks measurement before it applies correction .

My listening position is 1.8m and the speakers are 75 cm from rear wall .

I usually listen at 75db to 80db at listening position but sometimes go to 90db .

As I said I set frequencies below about 200hz to mono using Nugen VSt in my DAW.

I am attracted to the Kh750 because of its dsp which can apply to the analog KH 310 as well as having bit more thump and clarity ( pretty good integrated sound at moment once sonarworks is applied .

However I am sensing from subsequent posts to mine that the KH750 may be underpowered for my application with 310's .

I could buy a KH810 but am scared of having to manually calibrate system - saying that being a older gent am attracted also to working in analog - my other monitors are small PSI A17s - no digital in them but not not enough low end for my final mix testing.

thanks for any comments or advice
?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi Bono Bobo , thanks for responding .

I have attached a Sonarworks measurement before it applies correction .

My listening position is 1.8m and the speakers are 75 cm from rear wall .

I usually listen at 75db to 80db at listening position but sometimes go to 90db .

As I said I set frequencies below about 200hz to mono using Nugen VSt in my DAW.

I am attracted to the Kh750 because of its dsp which can apply to the analog KH 310 as well as having bit more thump and clarity ( pretty good integrated sound at moment once sonarworks is applied .

However I am sensing from subsequent posts to mine that the KH750 may be underpowered for my application with 310's .

I could buy a KH810 but am scared of having to manually calibrate system - saying that being a older gent am attracted also to working in analog - my other monitors are small PSI A17s - no digital in them but not not enough low end for my final mix testing.

thanks for any comments or advice
?

From my perspective your measurement looks very good. I don´t know if you can expect significant improvements from adding a sub (except very low end). Personally, i was very satisfied with the MA 1 calibration, including phase alignment of the KH310. Maybe you will gain some improvements in clarity and imaging from the MA 1 alignment, but i don´t know in your case. Because of this, i would rather use 2 KH750 than one KH810. 2 subs are better than 1 anyway.

 

[richard12511]

Does the KH310 really have more output than the KH750 below 50Hz? That seems not right.

 

[shawnsingh]

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a#technical-data
and
https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp#technical-data

Neumann seems to have a reputation that their data is sincere and reproducible.

There's a few different ways to look at bass behavior in that data, but probably a good start is "bass capability" and one of the plots that shows max SPL at 3% THD. For 3%, it does seem that KH310 can reach a higher SPL. But what's unclear to me is what SPL the KH310 can reach regardless of distortion - the 750 has a plot that does reach much louder at 10% THD.

Probably the main reason to pair 310 and 750 would be to (1) extend bass down to 18 Hz, maybe (2) to reduce distortion of the 310 Woofer above 80 Hz, but likely not to increase SPL.

 

[NickH]

From my perspective your measurement looks very good. I don´t know if you can expect significant improvements from adding a sub (except very low end). Personally, i was very satisfied with the MA 1 calibration, including phase alignment of the KH310. Maybe you will gain some improvements in clarity and imaging from the MA 1 alignment, but i don´t know in your case. Because of this, i would rather use 2 KH750 than one KH810. 2 subs are better than 1 anyway.

 

[NickH]

Thanks for your appreciated reply.

Due to my IT ignorance I am still confused about the process for setting up 2 KH750's with the MA1 - I have read the Neumann guide and think i would want to configure both subs in mono .

Please could someone spell out for me given my internet set is -

House- broadband comes in via BT phone line to BT modem ( my internet provider( which then routes wifi around house including to my music shed down the garden ( get 20 meg download in shed through wifi )

I do not have any other routers etc but the laptop I connect by wifi does have an ethernet port but not sure if it just recieves .

Do i need any other kit to use MA1 - the Neumann manual refers other IT kit and also I think says if connecting 2 rathe than 1 KH750 and wanting to use MA1 to calibrate then additional connectivity is needed .

thanks


Nick

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a#technical-data
and
https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp#technical-data

Neumann seems to have a reputation that their data is sincere and reproducible.

There's a few different ways to look at bass behavior in that data, but probably a good start is "bass capability" and one of the plots that shows max SPL at 3% THD. For 3%, it does seem that KH310 can reach a higher SPL. But what's unclear to me is what SPL the KH310 can reach regardless of distortion - the 750 has a plot that does reach much louder at 10% THD.

Probably the main reason to pair 310 and 750 would be to (1) extend bass down to 18 Hz, maybe (2) to reduce distortion of the 310 Woofer above 80 Hz, but likely not to increase SPL.

 

[NickH]

Hi there- please can i ask for a view on if a KH810 sub has more spl , headroom and lower distortion than a pair of KH750's ?

thanks
Nick

 

[thewas]

When using a pair of KH750 you can add approximately 6dB so its max SPL will be similar to one KH810
https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-810#technical-data

But even if the one KH810 would be have superior SPL I would usually go for the dual subs option (unless the max SPL is really needed) as with more woofers clever placed in the room you can get a smoother bass response or even try a stereo bass configuration, thus being more flexible.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Thanks for your appreciated reply.

Due to my IT ignorance I am still confused about the process for setting up 2 KH750's with the MA1 - I have read the Neumann guide and think i would want to configure both subs in mono .

Please could someone spell out for me given my internet set is -

House- broadband comes in via BT phone line to BT modem ( my internet provider( which then routes wifi around house including to my music shed down the garden ( get 20 meg download in shed through wifi )

I do not have any other routers etc but the laptop I connect by wifi does have an ethernet port but not sure if it just recieves .

Do i need any other kit to use MA1 - the Neumann manual refers other IT kit and also I think says if connecting 2 rathe than 1 KH750 and wanting to use MA1 to calibrate then additional connectivity is needed .

thanks


Nick

Both subs and the laptop have to be connected to the router in some way. You cannot connect the subs to the laptop directly. Because the subs have no built in wifi, other than the laptop, you need two LAN-cables for the subs and a device with at least two ports for those cables. It is probably not practical to connect both subs to the router with long cables, even if the router had unused ports. So you could buy a device with wifi and at least two LAN-ports (i.e. a repeater with a switch), that act as a bridge and connects to the router via wifi and to the subs via LAN-cables.

For using the MA1, you need an interface with 48v phantom power for the microphone and analogue or digital outputs for the subs. The interface has to be connected via USB to you laptop, because the laptop is running the alignment software. If you use analogue outs and no routing/mixing software, you need two y-cables because both subs need to receive the same stereo-signal. You can connect the KH310 to either of the subs then (or L to L and R to R).

Because the alignment information is saved into the hardware of the KH750, you don´t need the network-device or the MA1 microphone or the USB interface anymore after everything is calibrated. So instead of buying you may borrow some of the extra stuff you need.

 

[NickH]

Both subs and the laptop have to be connected to the router in some way. You cannot connect the subs to the laptop directly. Because the subs have no built in wifi, other than the laptop, you need two LAN-cables for the subs and a device with at least two ports for those cables. It is probably not practical to connect both subs to the router with long cables, even if the router had unused ports. So you could buy a device with wifi and at least two LAN-ports (i.e. a repeater with a switch), that act as a bridge and connects to the router via wifi and to the subs via LAN-cables.

For using the MA1, you need an interface with 48v phantom power for the microphone and analogue or digital outputs for the subs. The interface has to be connected via USB to you laptop, because the laptop is running the alignment software. If you use analogue outs and no routing/mixing software, you need two y-cables because both subs need to receive the same stereo-signal. You can connect the KH310 to either of the subs then (or L to L and R to R).

Because the alignment information is saved into the hardware of the KH750, you don´t need the network-device or the MA1 microphone or the USB interface anymore after everything is calibrated. So instead of buying you may borrow some of the extra stuff you need.

 

[NickH]

Thankyou DJBonobobo !

May I ask did you originally set up your 310's with one KH750 then add a second ? If so was there an significant improvement for you ?

best wishes