New Neumann KH 310 II and KH 350 Rumors: Leaked Pricing & Info

[goat76]

Anything you think you get from a comparison on YouTube is a delusion. The amount of processing and mediation between the speakers and your ears means that you are not hearing the speakers or even a good recording of the speakers.

Didn't I say that a few times already?
Everything from the quality and setup of the microphone, the room acoustics, the processing of the sound on YouTube, and the audio gear used for the playback will all stand “in the way” of a proper listening comparison.

The only reason I put just a little bit of trust in that sound demo is that I actually recognize the midrange quality of the ATC speakers, as I’m very familiar with that sound. As I find the audio recording to be fairly representative of how the ATC speakers generally sound, I would guess it also fairly representative of how the Neumann speakers generally sound.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Didn't I say that a few times already?

Yes, but then you said

I put just a little bit of trust in that sound demo

Which is where you are going astray

 

[Ype]

It's getting a bit silly when you're constantly trying to put me in the light of not trusting the science, when I have repeatedly said that I fully well know all the problems that come with a sound demo on YouTube. Just relax and have some fun, and describe the differences you hear in the video.

P.S. You have no clue about what I know, what I've read, or what my experiences are.

Ah yeah we are on audio science review, I joined it to discuss audio science.
So talking about the validity of the comparison and hearing other perspectives is the whole point of me being on here.
It is relaxing and fun to me.

Oh and did I misunderstand you, you have done blind tests and came to different conclusions?

 

[Ype]

Anyways I'll be of the air for a while, other types of neuromodulation has been unsuccessful so we're trying PRF today.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1546084318300579

I will happily discuss audio science with you here, but nobody is going to die if you use colored speakers.
I take the science behind it seriously, but what you do with it is none of my concern, you do you.
I presume people are on ASR because they enjoy talking about audio science though.

 

[ozonepaul]

There are 2 other major issues with the ATC SCM25 vs Neumann KH310 video (other than the level being way too high, so the limiter on the Neumann was sometimes on):

1. The Neumann was also set up totally wrong: the woofer should have been on the inside! Neumann even sells these speakers as 2 different speaker versions: Neumann KH 310 II Right; Neumann KH 310 II Left to avoid confusion which is which.

2. The acoustical axis on the Neumann is passing through the midpoint between the midrange and tweeter drivers, while on the ATC it's located exactly at the height of the 3-inch mid-range dome driver, but the monitor height (or less ideally the microphone height) was never changed accordingly during the test!

These are ginormous mistakes!

 

[goat76]

I will happily discuss audio science with you here, but nobody is going to die if you use colored speakers.
I take the science behind it seriously, but what you do with it is none of my concern, you do you.
I presume people are on ASR because they enjoy talking about audio science though.

You don't have to worry, I don't use colored speakers. And your presumption is right, the main reason I’m a member here on ASR is for the science part. That doesn't mean I’m not at all interested in what that science leads to when it comes to how we perceive the sound, as that is what it all comes down to in the end.

 

[goat76]

There are 2 other major issues with the ATC SCM25 vs Neumann KH310 video (other than the level being way too high, so the limiter on the Neumann was sometimes on):

It would have been interesting to see a comparison of the limiter between the new and the previous version of the KH310. May the limiter have been set lower for the KH310 MkII because of the change of the crossover points?

The guy in the video thought he played them at a moderate level, and I think @Ype suggested that his older KH310 has to be played quite loudly before the limiter kicks in.

1. The Neumann was also set up totally wrong: the woofer should have been on the inside! Neumann even sells these speakers as 2 different speaker versions: Neumann KH 310 II Right; Neumann KH 310 II Left to avoid confusion which is which.

The question is whether that is really critical, as the position of the midrange driver and the tweeter should dictate the perceived stereo width.

2. The acoustical axis on the Neumann is passing through the midpoint between the midrange and tweeter drivers, while on the ATC it's located exactly at the height of the 3-inch mid-range dome driver, but the microphone height was never changed accordingly during the test!

These are ginormous mistakes!

Instead of your suggestion that the height of the microphone would have been changed, it would have been better to raise the loudspeakers to set their acoustic axis to the same height as the microphone (which I assume is set up at the optimal listening height).

One question about that remains. The acoustic center of the ATC SCM25 is at the height of the midrange driver or 5 degrees below it, so if the guy in the video has them set up a bit higher than the center line of the mid-dome driver, the height would have been suited for both the loudspeakers.
This is hard to know without asking the guy.

 

[ozonepaul]

...Instead of your suggestion that the height of the microphone would have been changed, it would have been better to raise the loudspeakers to set their acoustic axis to the same height as the microphone (which I assume is set up at the optimal listening height)....

Thanks, you're right, I just edited my post.

 

[b73i57dc3f]

May the limiter have been set lower for the KH310 MkII because of the change of the crossover points?
The guy in the video thought he played them at a moderate level, and I think @Ype suggested that his older KH310 has to be played quite loudly before the limiter kicks in.

In general, when the limiter kicks in heavily depends on content. Case in point, in that video the light of the limiter only starts flashing when the deep bass hits with full force, about 40 seconds into the original song (as found here):

That's because lower frequencies need more excursion for the same SPL. Everything else being the same, excursion scales with 1/f^2, e.g. 35Hz needs 4x excursion of 70Hz for the same SPL - a huge difference.
Also, according to the comments below that video, only the ATC were playing at a "medium level", the Neumann were playing significantly louder:

 

[goat76]

I would have thought the guy in the video had set the volume individually to approximately the same SPL. What is the sensitivity for the KH310 MkII?

 

[Ype]

You don't have to worry, I don't use colored speakers. And your presumption is right, the main reason I’m a member here on ASR is for the science part. That doesn't mean I’m not at all interested in what that science leads to when it comes to how we perceive the sound, as that is what it all comes down to in the end.

I will happily direct you here:

A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

It is resonances that are mainly responsible for lack of neutrality in loudspeakers, so the first task for competent speaker designers is to minimize them. After that spectral balance and directivity control need to be attended to. The industry standard measurement method, used by Amir, which...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If you prefer to mix on colored speakers that is totally fine but you cannot claim in one post that the problems are inaudible and then claim not just a timbre difference but even that this is better, whatever that means.

I am not going to be silly about this.


Edit: original part of the post that got corrected:

You can disagree with the research but look at your own measurements, ~~look at the measurements of the mid dome driver used in it~~ and you will see that as far as we can tell the ATC speakers are colored.

Bit between ~~ ~~ is apparently not accurate, thank you @goat76 for the correction!
I should really pay better attention and not post the next few days.
But it does not change the argument.

Edit2:

New Neumann KH 310 II and KH 350 Rumors: Leaked Pricing & Info

Given the choice, I'd rather not have the dip. agreed, especially since the dip costs more

www.audiosciencereview.com

You do own the ATC SMC40 that has a mid driver, and the deviations of the speakers you own are known to you and discussed by you.

New Neumann KH 310 II and KH 350 Rumors: Leaked Pricing & Info

Amir doesn't have the Klippel room correction module that is used for distortion measurements. So his distortion measurements contain room reflections / modes and of course aren't fully comparable to free field ones. Erin does, and someone did a comparison of his and Stoneeh's THDs on the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You can hear an ATC speaker is better through a recording of a speaker using the same mid driver (or not, at this point I neither know nor care).

New Neumann KH 310 II and KH 350 Rumors: Leaked Pricing & Info

Given the choice, I'd rather not have the dip. agreed, especially since the dip costs more

www.audiosciencereview.com

And yet you say the following: "Of course, it's normal that members on a forum like this will exaggerate things seen in measurements thanks to the extraordinary precision measurements we have at our disposal, but the actual window for not detecting some of these small deviations while listening in a real-world scenario is quite slim."

You totally lost me mate.
If I somehow see the light after I recovered I'll gladly ask the mods to remove this post.
But for now, best good luck on your audio adventure!

 

[LiveTek]

1. The Neumann was also set up totally wrong: the woofer should have been on the inside! Neumann even sells these speakers as 2 different speaker versions: Neumann KH 310 II Right; Neumann KH 310 II Left to avoid confusion which is which.

You can really use 3 ways like this either way. Some people like the dome and tweeter on the inside, some like it on the outside. The speakers dispersion doesn't really make it seem like either side would be better.


Oh boy, that Reid Stefan video. Usually those kinds of videos are useless at informing one of anything really, but this one has to be the worst I've heard. It also seems like Reid doesn't know how to use the input sensitivity settings on the Neumanns. Video sucks, just another producer tube junker.

 

[dfuller]

You can really use 3 ways like this either way. Some people like the dome and tweeter on the inside, some like it on the outside. The speakers dispersion doesn't really make it seem like either side would be better

IME they're somewhat better tweeters in. I suspect it's because the horizontal dispersion is asymmetrical and that provides slightly less side wall reflections, but that's a conjecture at best.

 

[goat76]

I am not going to be silly about this.

You are already silly about this.
How does the Neumann mid-dome driver perform at 4.5 kHz, do you have measurements for that?

 

[Ype]

Yes, ATC loudspeakers measures well enough for you or anyone else not to hear any problems in a real-world setting.

This is how my ATC SCM20PSL Classics measure, and it will only be people who are exaggerating the small deviations they see in the measurements who will think they will hear any problems while listening to these speakers. I don’t care for deep-diving nerdy stuff, in a similar way as I don’t care about the highest sinad numbers above what can be heard in a real-world setting.

View attachment 559995

Just an extra note about people here who tend to exaggerate deviations seen in measurements.
All the loudspeakers mentioned in this thread would be top contenders in the type of preference listening tests that Toole and his team did and do at Harman, as the deviations are way smaller compared to what loudspeakers used to have when those tests were done more regularly. Of course, it's normal that members on a forum like this will exaggerate things seen in measurements thanks to the extraordinary precision measurements we have at our disposal, but the actual window for not detecting some of these small deviations while listening in a real-world scenario is quite slim.

Everybody can read what you type here mate, it's a public forum.
You are arguing with yourself at this point.
Thank you for your time.

 

[goat76]

@Ype
ATC SCM20 doesn’t even have a mid-dome driver, so you are really the one who’s sailing your own boat.

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's unfortunate that the KH350 is more expensive than the KH310 II when it's basically the same amp and drivers

 

[Curvature]

It's unfortunate that the KH350 is more expensive than the KH310 II when it's basically the same amp and drivers

A touch more money for a touch more bass and a bigger cabinet. Seems ok.

 

[Ype]

The KH350 would be a no brainer for me if I wanted to build out a surround set, re-using my KH310's as surrounds.

The fact that someone could recommend their speakers 10+ years ago and Neumann still supports the old models through their DSP subwoofers is amazing.
Of course the Genelec The Ones series is also worth looking at if you are not yet in this ecosystem.

Very exciting to see all these designs!
-Ype

 

[ozonepaul]

You can really use 3 ways like this either way. Some people like the dome and tweeter on the inside, some like it on the outside. The speakers dispersion doesn't really make it seem like either side would be better....

I've seen people setting up KH310s with the woofer outside in some studios where for the reasons of space/room set-up limitations they were sitting really close (non equilateral triangle). These are often situations where the KH310 is e.g. put on a console's meter bridge, way too wide (so the distance between the monitors is much bigger than the distance between the monitor and the mix position). It makes a lot of sense in these cases to set them up woofers outwards, so that the tweeter and mid driver integration happens faster, in a shorter distance. So yes, in these compromised situations a "reverse" set-up can be beneficial.
But I tested it on my system and the phantom center is clearly much more precise and much much better defined when set up properly (with the woofers inside). My mixing position is at 148cm, I achieved the best result in my room if I sit something like 10-15cm inside the triangle (so the distance between the acoustical axis of the monitors - the mid point between the tweeter and the mid driver - is 148cm while I'm sitting so that my ears are 133-138cm from the acoustical axis (and obviously acoustical axis at ear height). And it's not a small difference: the sweet spot is wider; no weird crossover dips; transients and instrument placement is clearer/significantly easier to judge etc.

So if for whatever reasons there are set-up limitations in the given room than worth experimenting with "reverse" (woofer outside) set-up.
If the room conditions are ideal (enough space, no L-R asymmetry, the wall behind the monitor is either less than 0.8m or more than 3m etc.) than the KH310 set up properly (woofer inside) is the better way to go. Also as I said in my previous post, Neumann clearly indicates that these monitors were designed this way: Neumann sells them as Neumann KH 310 II Right (woofer inside); Neumann KH 310 II Left (woofer inside).