New Neumann KH 310 II and KH 350 Rumors: Leaked Pricing & Info

[pedrojoaquimborges]

For those that haven’t seen. Officially released.

Neumann Nights Berlin

www.neumann.com

Oh my. I thought they'd just address the 310 low end distortion with DSP but they actually redesigned the woofer.

 

[Pearljam5000]

"Quickest transient response"
Is that even measurable?

 

[Chr1]

Given the predicted price is over 3k each, I would hope for an upgraded woofer.

 

[pedrojoaquimborges]

"Quickest transient response"
Is that even measurable? View attachment 556028

I can almost assure you that drivers do not violate Newton's laws of motion.

 

[Leprachaun]

There is currently an error on the website. Have they actually been officially released yet?

I hope they don't have crazy price tags like 3,200 euros per speaker. I've been waiting two months to upgrade my system, and if they cost that much, I'll go with Genelec or ATC (SCM20). Let's hope they haven't lost their minds and still understand their position in the market...

 

[pedrojoaquimborges]

There is currently an error on the website. Have they actually been officially released yet?

I hope they don't have crazy price tags like 3,200 euros per speaker. I've been waiting two months to upgrade my system, and if they cost that much, I'll go with Genelec or ATC (SCM20). Let's hope they haven't lost their minds and still understand their position in the market...

The little ATC isn't particularily comparable. The whole reason this ATC-Neumann discussion keeps recurring is the similarity in driver layout with the SCM25, namely the mid dome. That ATC is a two way.

Now with the coaxial Genelecs, the comparison makes more sense. However the only model with comparable low end response (8351) costs 3800 in the EU, so...

 

[Leprachaun]

I have mixed or mastered multiple times in studios equipped with the ATC SCM20 and SCM25A II, and honestly, the quality level is identical. They might not have quite as much midrange detail, but they are undoubtedly top-tier. I hope Neumann remembers that their speaker products are not hyper- hyper-high-end, but rather 'entry-level high-end' for the masses. I believe they will fail if they change course.

The same applies to the microphone world: those looking for luxury and mega-high-end quality mics buy a Telefunken ELAM 251, a Sony C-800G, AKG C12 or a vintage Neumann U47. However, if you want to step into entry-level high-end without spending an absolute fortune, you buy a Neumann U87 Ai. It's entry-level high-end, but not the absolute top of the line. That is their market positioning, and if they lose sight of that, I believe they will fail.

 

[kharan]

There is currently an error on the website. Have they actually been officially released yet?

I hope they don't have crazy price tags like 3,200 euros per speaker. I've been waiting two months to upgrade my system, and if they cost that much, I'll go with Genelec or ATC (SCM20). Let's hope they haven't lost their minds and still understand their position in the market...

Obviously, like the time the speakers appeared on that retail website, this was a mistake. This time it was on Neumann's part.

 

[goat76]

The little ATC isn't particularily comparable. The whole reason this ATC-Neumann discussion keeps recurring is the similarity in driver layout with the SCM25, namely the mid dome. That ATC is a two way.

I know what you mean and why the Neumann KH310 is often compared to the ATC SCM25 because of the driver layout, but the "little" ATC SCM20 is actually quite a large loudspeaker, larger than the KH310. I find the SCM20 to have a great-sounding midrange even though it's only a 2-way speaker, probably because ATC always puts a lot of focus on midrange quality, but it lacks bass extension, and I think it needs subwoofers. The same is probably true for the KH310, as it's reported to limit and compress the bass at not-that-high SPL. Physics are physics.

Neumann KH310 dimensions: 253 x 383 x 292 mm
ATC SCM20 dimensions: 450 x 250 x 294 mm (active 392 mm depth)

 

[Blockader]

"Quickest transient response"
Is that even measurable? View attachment 556028

That's what it refers to: low group delay. A sealed enclosure has lower group delay than an equivalent ported design. It is measurable. KH 750 also shares the same story, it is one of subwoofers that has the lowest group delay.

 

[Blockader]

I have mixed or mastered multiple times in studios equipped with the ATC SCM20 and SCM25A II, and honestly, the quality level is identical. They might not have quite as much midrange detail, but they are undoubtedly top-tier. I hope Neumann remembers that their speaker products are not hyper- hyper-high-end, but rather 'entry-level high-end' for the masses. I believe they will fail if they change course.

The same applies to the microphone world: those looking for luxury and mega-high-end quality mics buy a Telefunken ELAM 251, a Sony C-800G, AKG C12 or a vintage Neumann U47. However, if you want to step into entry-level high-end without spending an absolute fortune, you buy a Neumann U87 Ai. It's entry-level high-end, but not the absolute top of the line. That is their market positioning, and if they lose sight of that, I believe they will fail.

That's absolute nonsense. Neumann's mid-dome has lower distortion and a higher max SPL capacity than ATC's mid-domes, and it has better dispersion characteristics on top of that. With a smaller motor and high-tech materials, Neumann built a better mid-dome than ATC. People just don't want to admit it... confirmation bias, plus nobody wants to swim against the current when ATC mid-domes get praised the way they do. The measurements tell a different story: the Neumann mid-dome wins in every metric.

As for the claim that Neumann isn't super-duper-max-ultra-pro-extra-bacon-high-end: again, nonsense. Neumann makes the best measuring conventional speakers in the world. The KH 420 has a near-perfect DI slope per octave and close-to-perfect on-axis linearity for an analog speaker. Just because they don't charge $100k a pair and don't wrap it in a titanium-depleted-uranium alloy enclosure with diamond drivers doesn't mean they aren't building some of the best sounding speakers on the planet.

 

[Curvature]

That's absolute nonsense. Neumann's mid-dome has lower distortion and a higher max SPL capacity than ATC's mid-domes, and it has better dispersion characteristics on top of that. With a smaller motor and high-tech materials, Neumann built a better mid-dome than ATC. People just don't want to admit it... confirmation bias, plus nobody wants to swim against the current when ATC mid-domes get praised the way they do. The measurements tell a different story: the Neumann mid-dome wins in every metric.

Do we have direct driver comparison or speaker comparisons?

 

[Blockader]

Do we have direct driver comparison or speaker comparisons?

I am currently looking for it, as far as I remember, a German website did the comparison before, I need to look deep for that. In worst case, comparing Anselm Goertz's max SPL measurements for Neumann and ATC can tell the story, however I want to find the direct comparison.

Neumann KH 420 Messungen - FIDELITY online

Neumann KH 420 – Studiomonitor versus High End Einige Lautsprecherhersteller betätigen sich bereits seit geraumer Zeit durchaus erfolgreich parallel in den Marktsegmenten High End und Studiomonitore. Der hier vorgestellte Lautsprecher KH 420 von Neumann Berlin dürfte primär in die zweite...

www.fidelity-online.de

Let this be a placeholder until I find the real comparison.

KH 420:

ATC SCM25:

 

[Leprachaun]

That's absolute nonsense. Neumann's mid-dome has lower distortion and a higher max SPL capacity than ATC's mid-domes, and it has better dispersion characteristics on top of that. With a smaller motor and high-tech materials, Neumann built a better mid-dome than ATC. People just don't want to admit it... confirmation bias, plus nobody wants to swim against the current when ATC mid-domes get praised the way they do. The measurements tell a different story: the Neumann mid-dome wins in every metric.

As for the claim that Neumann isn't super-duper-max-ultra-pro-extra-bacon-high-end: again, nonsense. Neumann makes the best measuring conventional speakers in the world. The KH 420 has a near-perfect DI slope per octave and close-to-perfect on-axis linearity for an analog speaker. Just because they don't charge $100k a pair and don't wrap it in a titanium-depleted-uranium alloy enclosure with diamond drivers doesn't mean they aren't building some of the best sounding speakers on the planet.

Have you worked professionally with the models I mentioned, or has your experience been limited to the Neumanns? It sounds like that...

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I am currently looking for it, as far as I remember, a German website did the comparison before, I need to look deep for that. In worst case, comparing Anselm Goertz's max SPL measurements for Neumann and ATC can tell the story, however I want to find the direct comparison.

Neumann KH 420 Messungen - FIDELITY online

Neumann KH 420 – Studiomonitor versus High End Einige Lautsprecherhersteller betätigen sich bereits seit geraumer Zeit durchaus erfolgreich parallel in den Marktsegmenten High End und Studiomonitore. Der hier vorgestellte Lautsprecher KH 420 von Neumann Berlin dürfte primär in die zweite...

www.fidelity-online.de

Let this be a placeholder until I find the real comparison.

You probably mean the original Sound & Recording review of the KH 310. The Neumann dome "won" against another dome driver. But, i am not sure if this was an ATC or a PMC middome?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

The whole ATC discussion is completely pointless, IMHO. If ATC measurements where good, they would make them public. As long as they don't make measurements public, ATC simply doesn't exist in my world. If they claim to be better than Neumann, they could easily prove it. It is also off topic, but this thread will probably/hopefully die in a few days anyway.

 

[Blockader]

Have you worked professionally with the models I mentioned, or has your experience been limited to the Neumanns? It sounds like that...

I've owned every Neumann model from the KH 120 up to the KH 420, and I'm on Genelecs now. This is a science based forum, and here the empirical impressions of working sound engineers rank below established measurements and published research. Professionals have their own confirmation biases like everyone else, and nothing in the path to becoming one requires you to know acoustics, psychoacoustics, or the science behind how a speaker's measured behaviour actually maps onto what you perceive. "Professional" means you make money at it, not that you understand why a dispersion behavior is less likely to be preferred than the other. And according to research of Floyd Toole and many others, Neumann designs align with the conclusions of preference researches better than ATC's do.

 

[pedrojoaquimborges]

I've owned every Neumann model from the KH 120 up to the KH 420, and I'm on Genelecs now. This is a science based forum, and here the empirical impressions of working sound engineers rank below established measurements and published research. Professionals have their own confirmation biases like everyone else, and nothing in the path to becoming one requires you to know acoustics, psychoacoustics, or the science behind how a speaker's measured behaviour actually maps onto what you perceive. "Professional" means you make money at it, not that you understand why a dispersion behavior is less likely to be preferred than the other. And according to research of Floyd Toole and many others, Neumann designs align with the conclusions of preference researches better than ATC's do.

I agree that, this being a science based forum, we should not draw conclusions from data we do not possess. It would only make sense to be having this ATC vs Neumann discussion if we had Amir or Erin's measurements of ATC SCM25/40s. You cant compare measurements from different researchers without ensuring confounding variables are controlled for.

I know what you mean and why the Neumann KH310 is often compared to the ATC SCM25 because of the driver layout, but the "little" ATC SCM20 is actually quite a large loudspeaker, larger than the KH310. I find the SCM20 to have a great-sounding midrange even though it's only a 2-way speaker, probably because ATC always puts a lot of focus on midrange quality, but it lacks bass extension, and I think it needs subwoofers. The same is probably true for the KH310, as it's reported to limit and compress the bass at not-that-high SPL. Physics are physics.

Neumann KH310 dimensions: 253 x 383 x 292 mm
ATC SCM20 dimensions: 450 x 250 x 294 mm (active 392 mm depth)

Ah, sorry. Wasn't aware of the SCM20's size.

What I mean with the two being incomparable is that it's not just a matter of quality at a given frequency band. Different speaker designs fulfill different purposes. The KH310 doesn't have a compression problem. Look at the measurements. It does have an issue with high THD around 50hz at high SPL. That means that if you operate it at moderate SPL nearfield on a boundary loaded setup it can be used for full range listening. It makes no sense to replace that with a two way with a much higher cutoff frequency.

 

[Blockader]

I agree that, this being a science based forum, we should not draw conclusions from data we do not possess. It would only make sense to be having this ATC vs Neumann discussion if we had Amir or Erin's measurements of ATC SCM25/40s. You cant compare measurements from different researchers without ensuring confounding variables are controlled for.


Ah, sorry. Wasn't aware of the SCM20's size.

Both ATC SCM25 and KH420 were measured by Anselm Goertz who has a PhD in acoustics design.(Honorary professor currently in TU Berlin) I honestly trust him more than anyone, however that's subjective.

 

[pedrojoaquimborges]

Both ATC SCM25 and KH420 were measured by Anselm Goertz who has a PhD in acoustics design.(Honorary professor currently in TU Berlin) I honestly trust him more than anyone, however that's subjective.

Share the measurements! Im interested.

Knowledge is very useful in designing appropriate test conditions, but appropriate equipment is just as crucial in obtaining valid results. The interest that surrounds the Klippel is not mere fanboying.

EDIT: Ah, it's the sound & recording measurements. Bit of a shame only archival versions seem to be available. They were a good resource.