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New Member, Audio Newbie, No Idea What I'm Doing

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lucas122478

lucas122478

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I've updated the first post at the beginning of the thread with an image of the spreadsheet showing what has been determined versus what hasn't and what has been suggested that is not available so it's easier than scrolling through all the messages. Still searching for a 3-way center speaker and accepting any other suggestions you guys have. Thanks for all the support!
 

preload

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Intro Rant
Hi guys, I'm new to the forums and I am completely ignorant to all of this. Searching the web for definitive and honest information is getting harder and harder as there is so many bull**** articles put up simply to generate AdSense revenue that was written by some random guy living in a cave in eastern Pakistan that was paid $5 to write the article.

I think you should revisit whether you're actually the one living in the cave. Although it was nice to read that you moved out of the U.S. a while ago - we have enough intolerant people here as it is.
 
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lucas122478

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I think you should revisit whether you're actually the one living in the cave. Although it was nice to read that you moved out of the U.S. a while ago - we have enough intolerant people here as it is.

In all seriousness Preload, there was no "intolerance" meant in what I stated. I could have easily stated articles written by a Martian in a cave on Mars. You just simply misunderstood the context. The Pakastani living in a cave is implied as an individual, that is living far away from the source, but they are writing advice on how to pick equipment that they literally have no knowledge about other than second-hand from what they read on the internet.

How many random guys living in caves in Pakistan do you know? For that matter, how many random guys living in caves in Pakistan have multi-thousand dollar audio setups? I guess, if you want to get technical, the likelihood of any random guy living in a cave in Pakistan is null unless they're wanted terrorists. Perhaps, Osama Bin Laden had himself a ripped setup. Are you seriously offended that I made a comment that could be pointed towards terrorists that murder women, men, and children?

Do you see what did I did there?

Of course, I am sure you would never take up for a terrorist. However, one could jump to the conclusion with your words. But, common sense dictates obviously whoever thinks that is simply missing the context of your message. Just as you missed the context of mine and come off as an intolerant social justice warrior yourself with your passive-aggressive comment on you're glad I am not in the states anymore.

So anyhow, I apologize if you found it offensive, maybe I could have done a better job at using a different example. Peace.
 
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preload

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In all seriousness Preload, there was no "intolerance" meant in what I stated.

In all seriousness, you can substitute any country or ethnic group into what you wrote and it would be offensive. Or do you feel that characterizing a group of people as living in caves and responsible for writing "bull**** articles put up to generate adsense revenue" is not somehow dehumanizing?

I guess, if you want to get technical, the likelihood of any Pakastani living in a cave is null unless they're wanted terrorists. Perhaps, Osama Bin Laden had himself a ripped setup. Are you seriously offended that I made a comment that could be pointed towards terrorists that murder women, men, and children?

Do you see what did I did there?

Yes, and congratulations, @lucas122478, you have now characterized people who live in Pakistan as "terrorists that murder women, men, and children." Thank you for confirming the beliefs that underlie your original statement about people in Pakistan living in caves.

But, common sense dictates obviously whoever thinks that is simply missing the context of your message. Just as you missed the context of mine and come off as an intolerant social justice warrior yourself with your passive-aggressive comment on you're glad I am not in the states anymore.

No, I think I understood you just fine. Your writing isn't as sophisticated as you might think. And you can call me whatever you like. I'm not the one living in the cave. "Do you see what I did there?"
 
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lucas122478

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In all seriousness, you can substitute any country or ethnic group into what you wrote and it would be offensive. Or do you feel that characterizing a group of people as living in caves and responsible for writing "bull**** articles put up to generate adsense revenue" is not somehow dehumanizing?



Do you see what did I did there?

Yes, and congratulations, you have now characterized people who live in Pakistan as "terrorists that murder women, men, and children." Thank you for confirming the beliefs that underlie your original statement about people in Pakistan living in caves.



No, I think I understood you just fine. Your writing isn't as sophisticated as you might think. And you can call me whatever you like. I'm not the one living in the cave. "Do you see what I did there?"[/QUOTE]

Oh, My, God. Get over yourself. Are you not going to defend Martin the Martian too? Look, bro I've got no time for thin-skinned trolls with issues like yours. I'll do us both a solid and just ignore you.
 

preload

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Oh, My, God. Get over yourself. Are you not going to defend Martin the Martian too? Look, bro I've got no time for thin-skinned trolls with issues like yours. I'll do us both a solid and just ignore you.

You definitely are a "newbie" with "no idea what you're doing" (your words), but not in relation to audio.
 
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lucas122478

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Can you tell me a good Philippines website that I can look at, for more speaker recommendations?

I haven't come across nor really looked for PH-based websites with audio enthusiasts. For years, I've literally only window-shopped AVRs and never got to the point of actually looking into speakers until a few days ago. I started off looking at lazada.com.ph. That is the Philippines equivalent to Amazon but with a lot of scammers and ridiculous prices to weed thru. (lol)

I then looked at what was available, disregarding user reviews because if you base the number of user reviews here, you're setting yourself up for failure. Example: Super BASS 2.1 5W Soundbar for only $30 - 400 5-star reviews.

Uhm? no? lol.

Mainly what I found when I would punch in keywords, were the atypical random top 10 or top 20 posts and the pattern emerged that they were all basically regurgitated articles. Unfortunately, audio and AVRs are a very, very small niche here. The truth is, most people just can't afford them, so the market is flooded with cheap garbage that people can afford and they are led to believe it's awesome. Take for example a local company that is extremely popular named Konzert. Possibly, they have good speakers, but the ones' I always heard sounded horrible.

After spending a day searching and not really finding any articles that really went into depth, I realized I was getting nowhere and that I needed to just find an audiophile community (you guys).

Furthermore, Lazada is also a poor representation of just what is available here. Filipino's up until COVID didn't really put much importance on internet visibility and selling online. Today, after some of your recommendations, I started digging through Facebook and I'm finding multiple audio resellers that possibly can import in more than what I initially perceived as available.

So really whatever you guys recommend, I can do all the leg work digging through vendors on Facebook, and those who do have websites, and find out if it is available or not. Another problem with researching for stuff here is a lot of websites if they exist don't even list the prices. This further complicates matters that I won't go into otherwise I might be labeled intolerant again from the hypersensitive police force.

But, if you really want to dig in just for curiosity sake you can search lazada.com.ph shopee.ph and go to marketplace in facebook and set your location to manila, PH, and search from there. Thanks again for all your effort bro.
 

sweetchaos

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Thanks for the info. Very interesting stuff.

Seeing how you get the Elac DBR62, my top pick changes to that.
1621841050715.png

-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 53.0Hz (resp. 44.0Hz).
Preference Score is 5.8 and would be 7.9 with a perfect subwoofer.
Amir's recommendation? Highly recommended. Source

I found it for 34000 PHP => 707 USD
Source:
1. https://www.lazada.com.ph/products/...o4l.searchlist.list.1.449c270bSNbQiy&search=1
2. https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...e=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post
In the states, it's going for 600 USD, so 707 USD equivalent is acceptable.

For a budget build like yours, I would get:
- Elac DBR62 for L-R.
- Polk S30 for center
- Polk S15 for rears.
- Polk S10's for Atmos (since Atmos is less important than the other speakers, and S10's smaller and lighter size would be easier to mount on the ceiling).
As you can see, I've saved some money for center and Atmos, and put more $ towards the L-R, where it matters.
If that's really pushing your budget, I would change the rear Polk S15's for Polk S10's.

In a perfect world, I would get 5 of Elac DBR62 (for LCR and rears), plus 4 of Polk S15's for Atmos. But alas, we all need to live within a budget, so i'm compromising. ;)
 
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lucas122478

lucas122478

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Both vendors, too risky. Zero sales from the lazada one. Also in his storefront he literally only has the ELACs nothing else. The facebook guy doesn't have enough followers, nor reviews to make him a safe bet either and he requires payment made upfront (bank xfer) before delivering. However, I'm sure I can find a more trustworthy dealer for these over the next month or two.

The POLKS30? I thought you said to stay away from 2-way speakers? LoL

Update: Soundconcepts, is a dealer for Elac. They're one that was referred earlier in the thread for the subs and they did respond to me via email. They were out of stock of the PB1000 but he offered me the PB2000 at a 10% discount from P68K ($1431 USD) to P61.2K ($1,288). Which would be $300 - $400 more than the PB1000 PRO.
 
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sweetchaos

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Tell that to the speaker designers...most make the MTM center speaker, with awful horizontal directivity. ;)
Plus I don't see many good center channel speakers available. So i'm compromising and selecting one from the same series (Polk S series).
In reality, I would pick a good bookshelf (like the Elac DBR62) as the center speaker any day of the week over these 2-way (MTM) center speakers.
 
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lucas122478

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Tell that to the speaker designers...most make the MTM center speaker, with awful horizontal directivity. ;)
Plus I don't see many good center channel speakers available. So i'm compromising and selecting one from the same series (Polk S series).
In reality, I would pick a good bookshelf (like the Elac DBR62) as the center speaker any day of the week over these 2-way (MTM) center speakers.

Okay, so shoot me 5 different 3-way center speakers that are $500 under in costs? Then I can see if I can special order them.
 

sweetchaos

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lucas122478

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Can you get me best pricing for SVS PB-1000, PB-1000 PRO, PB-2000 and PB-2000 PRO?

I'll see what I can find tomorrow for the center speakers.
It's getting late (1am here), so i'm out for now.

I've found the PB-1000 Pro for as cheap as around $780 so far if paid in cash. Mostly it's selling for $900 from what I've seen. The PB-2000 PRO I've only found that one from Sound concepts that he's offering at a discount for $1288. The regular versions haven't found anything yet. To get the best deals here you usually have to buy in with a "group buy". That's basically how a lot of online facebook businesses operate here. For example, the guy I get my 3rd party transformers from, put's up a post asking who wants to pre-order. If the MOQ is met, he'll take deposits, and then order the figures. Then once they arrive you pay the remaining balance owed. The guy that had the PB1000 PRO for $780 appears to operate in the same manner because he was taking pre-orders for it. Goodnight!
 

sweetchaos

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So in your area, PB-2000 Pro is 65% more expensive than PB-1000 PRO...let's keep that in mind.

If you take a look at my spreadsheet, you'll see how they're ranked vs each other:
1621881315762.png

A couple of observations:
1. retail price is 600 usd and 900 usd, which means pb-2000 pro is 50% more expensive than pb-1000 pro.
2. they have the same output at 15hz, meaning they both play 15hz (but at very low output), so feel free to ignore 15hz and look at higher frequencies, where it matters.
3. remember that adding a 2nd subwoofer gets you 3db more output at higher frequencies (above 30hz) AND about 6db output at lower frequencies (below 30hz)
4. as you can see from this quick comparison I made:
1621882330599.png

if we summarize the table above:
below 30hz, you get an average of 4db more output.
above 30hz, you get an average of 4.3db more output.

What that means is that you really only need about 1.5 of PB-1000 PRO’s to equal one PB-2000 PRO.
Which means that SVS pricing of 50% makes sense.
It also means that if you're paying over 50% for PB-2000 PRO (like in your case, it's 65% more), it's too much.

My recommendation...negotiate the price down on PB-2000 PRO further down to about 50%.

Otherwise, get the PB-1000 PRO, as the deal is better.
My recommendation is if you can't get the PB-2000 PRO price down further, then save up for a 2nd PB-1000 PRO.
Which brings me back to point #3 I made:
"remember that adding a 2nd subwoofer gets you 3db more output at higher frequencies (above 30hz) AND about 6db output at lower frequencies (below 30hz)"

Having a second subwoofer should be your end-goal. There's no doubt on the benefits of dual subwoofers.
So for example, if you're getting the PB-2000 PRO now, then start saving up $ for a second one in the near future.
Otherwise, get dual PB-1000 PRO's in the near future.
My recommendation is to buy a 2nd sub, within a year of getting the 1st, if your budget is tight.
 

sweetchaos

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Here's the 3-way center speakers I found under US$500/ea (sorted $-$$):
1. Polk Audio LSiM 704c
US$250
2. Airmotiv C1+ Center
US$250
3. SVS Prime Center
US$350
4. Monoprice THX-365C THX
US$400
5. Airmotiv C2+ Center
US$400
6. Aperion Audio Novus N5C
US$500

Of course, I'd like to see these on the test bench for a definitive say whether they are good or something is broken.
 
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lucas122478

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It was a busy day. The LG 55CXOLED and Samsung HW-450A came in. It took entirely too long to put the stand on the TV. For whatever reasons, the instructions did not show attaching the 3 screws to the front metal leg area that attaches to the base. I assumed once you screwed in the backplate for the base that the front metal bar (leg) would be stuck into place. That wasn't the case, had to remove the backplate again and redo it once I figured it out. I was also stressing out with just how thin the top part of the TV is, I had king-size memory foam pillows on each side of it so I could prop it up on the bed in order to attach the base.

Once that was all done I moved on to the soundbar. That took forever also. I couldn't figure out how to get it to work correctly with built-in speakers and Bluetooth. The HW-450A does help sound a bit better than the built-in speakers. However, my own personal opinion and that of my girlfriend, my Logitech Z623 THX-certified 2.1 computer speakers sound better. The subwoofer for my Logitech also appears to be better, of course, it's twice the size as the Samsung. I also never got around to purchasing a dedicated sound card on the rig so it's currently just using the onboard motherboard sound. The mobo is the Z370 Aorus Gaming 7, which included a Realtek ALC1220 chipset. For the $400+ I paid for the motherboard, I doubt can get much better onboard sound than that. However, I would benefit from a dedicated soundcard. But, I'm the world's worst procrastinator.

SweetChaos, you answered one of my questions that I forgot to ask, and that was do I really need 2 subs. I really appreciate all the help, knowledge, and time you've spent with me on this SweetChaos.

As for the center speaker recommendations, I will look and ask around to see what I can come up with. I think this will pretty much wrap up the setup unless others have any valuable information to offer? Of course, it's going to be a few months to get all of this stuff, and in that time, if the home audio industry is anything like the computer industry there will be better speakers out in a weeks' time? lol
 
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