New Klipsch Jubilee speaker

[garyrc]

It's a horn-loaded bass bin. It's also a speaker designed for 1/8th space, no matter where the marketing guys put it.

Yes, for 1/8 space (fully in a trihedral corner). It can be toed in, if necessary, but pushed all the way into the corner. Watch some magazine test it otherwise, like Stereophile absurdly did with the Klipschorn A6 -- outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly!

 

[anmpr1]

Watch some magazine test it otherwise, like Stereophile absurdly did with the Klipschorn A6 -- outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly!

Absurd? Are you sure you want to use that word? How do you measure a loudspeaker that uses the room as part of the speaker?

Was Atkinson being absurd when he wrote: Note that I haven't plotted the response below 350Hz ...as the horn-loaded woofer's output in free space wasn't fully captured within the gated time window. (For this kind of measurement, the FFT is applied to the portion of the impulse response before the first reflection of the sound, which in this case will be from the ground in front of the loudspeaker).

Richard Heyser, probably the first reviewer to rigorously analyze loudspeakers in the popular press, and a man I would never use the 'A' word to describe, wrote: Doing a complete set of acoustic performance measurements on the K-horn is a tour de force for any reviewer. This is a corner horn... hence it requires a corner. How does one make free-field response measurements when there are corners? Paul Klipsch solved the problem by building an anechoic chamber with insertable corners. ...I could not haul the speaker out of doors for lower frequency measurements since it needs corners to produce low notes. [I had to] use computer software... (this was in 1986, by the way).

Practically, a loudspeaker such as this, or any of the fully horn loaded loudspeaker, must be auditioned in a suitable environment. Maybe more so than other types of reproducers. It's one of those things that you either like what they do, in spite of their obvious limitations, or you don't. It is not something one tends to be indifferent about, one way or the other.

 

[mhardy6647]

Seems straightforward enough to me: For a corner horn, the room is part of the loudspeaker system and needs to be included in any measurements.
For better or for worse.

 

[anmpr1]

Seems straightforward enough to me: For a corner horn, the room is part of the loudspeaker system and needs to be included in any measurements.
For better or for worse.

Sure. But whose corner? The deal with speaker measurements in a magazine, at least from a practical point, is to enable the consumer to be able to compare like measures with like. A shoe box on a Klippelized stand is not going to present the same problems as a corner horn, or a Bose 901. Once you start talking about the room as an integral part of the speaker, variables are less clear.

What should be obvious in all of this, is that if you are looking for gut wrenching, twenty hertz room pounding Death Star exploding low notes, in a domestic environment (i.e., a typical living room), then this isn't the droid you're looking for. Price and size ignored (not that more than a few could ever ignore those factors), this fact alone will eliminate the loudspeaker from probably 99% of all loudspeaker buyers.

However it is, I wouldn't call Atkinson's (or Heyser's, may he RIP) attempt at working the problem out, 'absurd'. That was my main point.

 

[Ciobi69]

The Klipschorn could not be perfect but it's such like a live event,could be by the dynamics and the effortless power of the speaker

 

[garyrc]

Absurd? Are you sure you want to use that word?

O.K.. maybe, "... like Stereophile did in its flawed testing of the Klipschorn A6 -- outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly!"

Atkinson: "Note that I haven't plotted the response below 350Hz in fig.5 ...," but he did plot it in figure 4 in what he describes as "free space," presumably outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly! Not surprisingly, he finds the response to be down about 13 dB at 30 Hz with no, or nearly no, boundary gain and no room gain, two things a Klipschorn, even the new ones with the closed backs, require. The marketing copy says that there is no need for the new Klipschorns "to fit tightly (some advertising copy says snuggly) in a corner." Some versions say it needs to be "in the proximity of the corner." None of this wording means outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly! Atkinson also finds that the bass is down about 7 dB at about 42 Hz. Again, no surprise with the speaker in "free space." More typical tests in an anechoic chamber, tucked into an artificial corner, show it at -3dB at 60 Hz, and fully recovered at 42 Hz (at the 0 line). In a room corner, a French magazine reported - 2.5 dB at 35 Hz. Because a subwoofer (preferably a horn loaded one to compliment the clean, tight, snappy bass of a Klipschorn) is needed with these speakers, crossing over at 80Hz or, maybe 60Hz, so response below 40 Hz is not too important, IMO.

I am quite familiar with the Heyser review. I liked him. Paul Klipsch liked him too. Heyser's computer assisted result showed the Klipschorn bass incredibly flat down to 40 Hz. Some questioned his results, because the bass was just too flat, but he was such a revered expert, I wonder if it might be about right. The mids and treble were about 10 dB peak/trough, as advertised.

Sure. But whose corner?

My corner. It looks conventional (but is secretly extra strong) and the minimum ceiling height is 8.5 feet, sloping up toward the back of the room at 11' 10."

What should be obvious in all of this, is that if you are looking for gut wrenching, twenty hertz room pounding Death Star exploding low notes, in a domestic environment

Well, with the direct-to-disc version of Fanfare for the Common Man I have, the timpani, tam-tam, and bass drum with the Klipschorns alone will throw my desk out of square, and flap pants legs in the wind they produce, even though (with Audyssey Flat) the system is flat to only about 30 Hz. Pretty gut wrenching. If I engage the subwoofer which comes in at about 60 Hz, and goes down to 16 Hz at about +2 dB, the Death Star explodes magnificently. It seems to lift the couch at 13 feet from the speakers.

At the moment, I can't seem to get my room curves to paste, but they are elseswhere on Audio Science Review, perhaps in the thread on the Klipsch sound. Had I been able to print them, I would have criticized them on the grounds I was using just 1 microphone. Below, in Khorn range, but not covering subwoofer range, is the result of averaging 8 microphone positions, with Audyssey Reference, which rolls off the treble by about 4.5 dB at 15K. The bass has been boosted by about 6 dB. This ordinary average probably isn't as good as the proprietary "fuzzy" amalgamation Audyssey does, but it's what I have.

 

[Ciobi69]

O.K.. maybe, "... like Stereophile did in its flawed testing of the Klipschorn A6 -- outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly!"

Atkinson: "Note that I haven't plotted the response below 350Hz in fig.5 ...," but he did plot it in figure 4 in what he describes as "free space," presumably outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly! Not surprisingly, he finds the response to be down about 13 dB at 30 Hz with no, or nearly no, boundary gain and no room gain, two things a Klipschorn, even the new ones with the closed backs, require. The marketing copy says that there is no need for the new Klipschorns "to fit tightly (some advertising copy says snuggly) in a corner." Some versions say it needs to be "in the proximity of the corner." None of this wording means outside, no corner, in a driveway, on a furniture dolly! Atkinson also finds that the bass is down about 7 dB at about 42 Hz. Again, no surprise with the speaker in "free space." More typical tests in an anechoic chamber, tucked into an artificial corner, show it at -3dB at 60 Hz, and fully recovered at 42 Hz (at the 0 line). In a room corner, a French magazine reported - 2.5 dB at 35 Hz. Because a subwoofer (preferably a horn loaded one to compliment the clean, tight, snappy bass of a Klipschorn) is needed with these speakers, crossing over at 80Hz or, maybe 60Hz, so response below 40 Hz is not too important, IMO.

I am quite familiar with the Heyser review. I liked him. Paul Klipsch liked him too. Heyser's computer assisted result showed the Klipschorn bass incredibly flat down to 40 Hz. Some questioned his results, because the bass was just too flat, but he was such a revered expert, I wonder if it might be about right. The mids and treble were about 10 dB peak/trough, as advertised.
View attachment 228378


My corner. It looks conventional (but is secretly extra strong) and the minimum ceiling height is 8.5 feet, sloping up toward the back of the room at 11' 10."

Well, with the direct-to-disc version of Fanfare for the Common Man I have, the timpani, tam-tam, and bass drum with the Klipschorns alone will throw my desk out of square, and flap pants legs in the wind they produce, even though (with Audyssey Flat) the system is flat to only about 30 Hz. Pretty gut wrenching. If I engage the subwoofer which comes in at about 60 Hz, and goes down to 16 Hz at about +2 dB, the Death Star explodes magnificently. It seems to lift the couch at 13 feet from the speakers.

At the moment, I can't seem to get my room curves to paste, but they are elseswhere on Audio Science Review, perhaps in the thread on the Klipsch sound. Had I been able to print them, I would have criticized them on the grounds I was using just 1 microphone. Below, in Khorn range, but not covering subwoofer range, is the result of averaging 8 microphone positions, with Audyssey Reference, which rolls off the treble by about 4.5 dB at 15K. The bass has been boosted by about 6 dB. This ordinary average probably isn't as good as the proprietary "fuzzy" amalgamation Audyssey does, but it's what I have.

i have khorn myself if i can ask could i see a picture/layout of the room, i am renowating my room and i am curious about your layout, thanks for the measurements looks sweat

 

[anmpr1]

I am quite familiar with the Heyser review. I liked him. Paul Klipsch liked him too. Heyser's computer assisted result showed the Klipschorn bass incredibly flat down to 40 Hz. Some questioned his results, because the bass was just too flat, but he was such a revered expert, I wonder if it might be about right. The mids and treble were about 10 dB peak/trough, as advertised.

Even though his review written in 1985-6 for publication in mid to late 1986, I think we understand what he heard and was trying to express in words. Today, probably because of home movies, when people think of bass response they want the sort of 'earthshaking' type of SPL you get from a large powered sub. Heyser discussed the subjective impression of the corner horn with music:

"The measured LF roll-off below 38Hz does not seem impressive; there are many smaller enclosures which measure as well. But something happens when this LF comes as a large-area wavefront whose boundaries are the walls of the room, rather than as a wavefront expanding spherically from a position in front of a wall. For one thing, the first impression one has is that the low end is deficient. because the LF rumbling and grumbling of most systems, which many people associate with low-end reproduction just isn't there. However, as one begins to really listen to the music (sic) ...one realizes that the deep bass is actually there and that it sounds natural and not overemphasized. Real low-end ambience in a room doesn't rumble, it's simply there as a pervasive ambiaence. ...the horn unloads very rapidly as one progresses below 35Hz ...the woofer can be made to rattle with excessive drive at 10 Hz with no great amount of LF content musical content in the room..."

Some claim that integrating a powered subwoofer with a horn is difficult. La Scala horn speakers roll off around 50Hz; a 12" powered sub fills the bottom end for music. It's a subtle reinforcement for the kind of program material I listen to.

Of course this new speaker is said not to require any special placement. The back is designed in a way that allows a snug corner fit. Given the 'cost is not a factor' design, and the use of DSP, I'm surprised they just didn't make it active, with internal amplifier modules. Not really surprised. But that could have made for a better overall package.

 

[garyrc]

I'd love to be able to afford Klipsch Jubilees.

But, for now, I'd like to get set up for DSP, with my Klipschorns, hopefully correcting time issues, and EQing to preference, but I will still roll off the Khorns below 60Hz or 80Hz, to further reduce modulation (Doppler) distortion, (by ear). Subwoofers get away with it because their high X-max in the bass does not give the higher frequencies (filtered out) the ride of their little lives. But, I'll still probably go with a horn loaded sub, for low excursion. I saw one DIY model that was floor to high ceiling for a rear corner.

For those who might enjoy it,

Red Shift: Doppler distortion in loudspeakers Page 3

www.stereophile.com

Here, @Ciobi69, is an attachment with my room pics. Hope it works. Continue to scroll down to the next picture, if large blank areas appear.

Attachments:​

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/musicc-room-pics-text-pdf.170535/ ​

music room pics & text.pdf
1.3 MB · Views: 40
I recommend searching audio sources for info on acoustics. For Khorns especially, a very firm wall, at least near the corners, is a good idea. Ours has an extra layer of 3/4" ply covered by 5/8" sheetrock, with staggered seams. It seems rock solid, compared to the normal wall we used to have, which would actually move a bit under the assault of loud music. You might take a look at Building a Recording Studio by Jeff Cooper.

 

[Sal1950]

Some claim that integrating a powered subwoofer with a horn is difficult. La Scala horn speakers roll off around 50Hz; a 12" powered sub fills the bottom end for music. It's a subtle reinforcement for the kind of program material I listen to.

Not so much difficult as expensive. I used 2 7' tall HSU subwoofers driven by a pair of 800 watt monoblocks to hang with my LaScala's
I did tend to play my music a bit loud back then. LOL

 

[anmpr1]

Not so much difficult as expensive. I used 2 7' tall HSU subwoofers driven by a pair of 800 watt monoblocks to hang with my LaScala's
I did tend to play my music a bit loud back then. LOL

One can really go overboard with subs, from a monetary point. But, then again, it's not as if Klipsch (or any) full horn loudspeaker maker is giving it away. The sub I use is embarrassingly cheap (and inexpensive LOL), but set to an almost imperceptible gain, and at its lowest internal crossover point, it makes a subtle improvement-- at least with 'filling in' the lower end. Nothing fancy. No DSP or anything like that. Just by ear. Not ASR tier, for sure.

One thing people criticize La Scalas for (and maybe K-horns, I don't have them so I can't say) is that the structure is not as rigid as it could be. No doubt this has an affect on the LF, and not in a positive way. Some have taken to bracing the lower enclosure. Some have turned the bass enclosure around, facing the wall/corner, in order to accentuate bass wave launch, mimicking a corner horn.

For the Klippelized ASR crowd, at least the vast majority of them, a horn loudspeaker isn't going to do it. The 'waterfall' alone would make Annie Edson Taylor's trip seem pretty mild and uneventful, by comparison.

I would never advise anyone to buy one of the larger Klipsch loudspeakers. I would, however, advise anyone interested to try and find someone with a pair, and then do some extended listening. The idea that you will be able to go to Guitar Center, buy a boxed set, throw them in the back seat, and when you get home spend a week listening to them in your living room, then return them for something else the next time you need to buy a pack of Ernie Ball's, is pretty much out of the question.

An authorized dealer will probably work with you if you are serious. But with any large loudspeaker, it's probably going to be like that. I don't know about these monsters, since I imagine they are special order, built on demand

FWIW, I bought mine 'mail order'. The dealer shipped them in a truck, sedning two men to assist. The deal was that if I didn't like them they would send Two Men and a Truck to my house, box them up, and take them back. I took them at their word. FWIW, since I bought mine, three years ago, retail price has gone up five thousand dollars. I like them, but I would not pay five thousand dollars more for them. If I was younger I would just say, "Screw it... I'm buying a high performance Japanese motorcycle. I'm going to get real value for my dollar..."

 

[nc535]

The Jubilee was my inspiration for the DIY speaker shown below that I built about 7 years ago. The top is a conical Synergy with a 1" BMS-4550 CD and 4 4" mid bass drivers that play down to 300 Hz with DSP XO and EQ. The base bin resembles the Jubilee on the outside but contains a single 15" woofer with 14 mm Xmax architected as bandpass and playing through the two vertical side slots. The ensemble is 40" tall and 28" wide. In its own room, equalized to flat to 30 Hz except for a few db of bass elevation it was quite impressive. Now that I'm in a townhouse, its more of a nostalgia piece.

 

[anmpr1]

The ensemble is 40" tall and 28" wide.

A dwarf compared to the Jubilee, at 70" x 50". I'm always happy to see DIY implementations of the old stuff. I'm sure yours is impressive. Back in the day, much of it was DIY. I think Paul Klipsch licensed his designs for hobbyists, and others too.

I'm reminded of Bill Hartsfield's take on the corner horn. 10 years in production, '54 to '64. Eventually morphing into the Everest, more or less.

 

[Ciobi69]

A dwarf compared to the Jubilee, at 70" x 50". I'm always happy to see DIY implementations of the old stuff. I'm sure yours is impressive. Back in the day, much of it was DIY. I think Paul Klipsch licensed his designs for hobbyists, and others too.

I'm reminded of Bill Hartsfield's take on the corner horn. 10 years in production, '54 to '64. Eventually morphing into the Everest, more or less.

View attachment 228688

a friend of mine told me that those were impressive

 

[Sal1950]

FWIW, since I bought mine, three years ago, retail price has gone up five thousand dollars.

In 1978 I bought mine new from the local dealer for $500 each, $1k the pair.
In some states that would just about cover the tax today. LOL

 

[Sal1950]

A dwarf compared to the Jubilee, at 70" x 50". I'm always happy to see DIY implementations of the old stuff. I'm sure yours is impressive. Back in the day, much of it was DIY. I think Paul Klipsch licensed his designs for hobbyists, and others too.

I'm reminded of Bill Hartsfield's take on the corner horn. 10 years in production, '54 to '64. Eventually morphing into the Everest, more or less.

View attachment 228688

It would be so great to be rich with a big house and be able to collect things like this.

 

[peanuts2]

so this speakers has a 7" titanium diaphragm? no way that will work well in the high-end. not to mention the beaming of a 2" exit.

 

[Sal1950]

so this speakers has a 7" titanium diaphragm? no way that will work well in the high-end. not to mention the beaming of a 2" exit.

Your evidence please.
There's a couple engineers at Hope with some design experience.
Statements of opinion hold no sway here.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

My, that is a big speaker. Makes me want see the surrounds that go with it haha.

 

[garyrc]

7' tall HSU subwoofers

Can you provide any more identifying info? I might be interested sooner or later.

How did you like them?