New Kii Seven

[Emlin]

It says solid Oak but there is a birch plywood layer under the Oak. At least the ones I owned 3 years ago had that.

That's what I thought! Thanks.

So D&D have become unreliable in their information, then.

 

[JustJones]

They said Roon integration for a long time which finally materialized. I wasn't patient and sold them during the pandemic for what I paid. I'm not sure they've ever gotten sub integration worked into their software though they have sub out.

 

[Emlin]

They said Roon integration for a long time which finally materialized. I wasn't patient and sold them during the pandemic for what I paid. I'm not sure they've ever gotten sub integration worked into their software though they have sub out.

No, sub out is still not working, and low on their priorities, apparently. Though it was high when they launched.

But this way off-topic, so we'll leave it there.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

So back to the topic.

How Kii are fighting against unwanted resonances in mids and highs?

Braces helps only at lower range.




Some companies like Focal or bw made a special thing for the tweeter's, q acoustics made a triple layer of MDF plus dual layers of ''gelcore'' in between, this help to make the cabinet very innert not only at lower range. KEF made his ''meta material'' for the UNIQ, thats for the same thing...



What about actives companies?

Neumann, Kii, d&d are kind of sleeping for what i see, Neumann is the most sleepy one, they just don't keep launching new products. And the KH420 went never passive, so the cute FR was only because of DPS. Or improve the tweeter. The kh420 has a tweeter that has lower directivity than the mids, they can launch the KH430 with wider directivity tweeter that match the mid-range. The tweeter has low directivity, is like 40° vs 55° of the midrange.
D&d did a better job in directivity than Neumann, in fact is really good.

What about Kii? They are very expensive.
How did they fix the midrange and highs resonances? at this price point i expect excellent spacial effects in the soundstage, not just tons of EQ for the FR looks nice.
Metal is worst fighting agaisnt mids-highs vs MDF. Metal cabinets ressonate at higher frequencies vs the MDF, MDF/hdf was never a bad material.

 

[dfuller]

The KH420 went never passive, so the cute FR was only because of DPS

1, K+H/Neumann never made passives.
2, the KH420 is entirely analog. The filters are done with op-amp circuits.
3, you can't brute force magnitude correction as much as you think. If the basic design sans any correction circuits isn't at least close to flat you aren't going to get there without other issues tearing their ugly heads.

The kh420 has a tweeter that has lower directivity than the mids, they can launch the KH430 with wider directivity tweeter that match the mid-range.

Looks like a pretty good match to me. Sounds like a good match too. It's pretty hard to do better than that.

Do I wish Neumann used a soft dome? Sure. Do I care enough to start tinkering with my $10,000 a pair speakers? No! Besides, unless I could get a substantially better tweeter in there I can't see much point.

How Kii are fighting against unwanted resonances in mids and highs?

If it's too high for bracing to deal with, it can be absorbed by material inside the speaker. The tweeter is a sealed housing, it doesn't really interact with the interior of the cabinet.

 

[meracus]

Fine dicing mosquitos follicles here , I won’t make a decision until they test it to be water tight to 300 metres
It’s a shame you deem them unworthy despite being tested to withstand 9g impact force !

 

[Jimbob54]

Really?

@BrokenEnglishGuy @Emlin

Lets not continue this type of bickering on here please.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

1, K+H/Neumann never made passives.
2, the KH420 is entirely analog. The filters are done with op-amp circuits.
3, you can't brute force magnitude correction as much as you think. If the basic design sans any correction circuits isn't at least close to flat you aren't going to get there without other issues tearing their ugly heads.


Looks like a pretty good match to me. Sounds like a good match too. It's pretty hard to do better than that.

Do I wish Neumann used a soft dome? Sure. Do I care enough to start tinkering with my $10,000 a pair speakers? No! Besides, unless I could get a substantially better tweeter in there I can't see much point.


If it's too high for bracing to deal with, it can be absorbed by material inside the speaker. The tweeter is a sealed housing, it doesn't really interact with the interior of the cabinet.

Pretty hard to do better? i don't aggre with that, personally because i had for 2 years a floorstanding with literally very similar directivity, the R7.



40° tweeter vs 55° mid range is very noticeable. Thats match very well my previous R7 series from KEF, directivity is almost identical. 40° tweeter and kind of 55° mid range, so i can comment about this behavior.



My R7s has a very clear small HF which don't match the mid-range, cymbals always sounded small no matter how much HF you boost in that range, they sound small. Thats literally the same case of the KH420.

------

The material inside is just a bad solution for MF HF behavior backwaves, speakers companys who cares about this put their solution for the MF-HF behavior + the typical material inside, is not like that material is magical or even very good for the task in the HiEnd realm, is just a very old and cheap solution.



Did you saw a kef reference 3 meta inside? you have the meta material thing in the UNIQ plus much more ''material'' than any Neumann or Genelec.... or 99% of passive speakers.

Actives companies should make better speakers, they should start to remove the electronics from inside... that would be a good start if they want to compite in SQ, but anyway, you are going to see much more gang for the buck in the passive speakers realm, you don't have to pay the '' convience tag '' you just pay the speaker.

Let's see how this Kii seven spin for 7000$, i saw the MF-HF behavior is better vs Genelec G3. If you want only an active system i would think about Kii first.

 

[srrxr71]

Wow, I guess I must go listen to these because I don't believe in hype. I bought my Kii Threes for around 7500-8000$ depending on exchange rate back in 2017 and thought that was already borderline too expensive then.

I also found the bottom end and upper bass lacking and added two subs (4x 10 inch drivers) to aid in the 20-200 hz range in my small room after experiencing the magic of BXT over the course of many hours in a largish demoroom.

I can't imagine feeling a mini-kii at the same + cost would ever feel like good value to me.
Well, just goes to show that we weight different things differently.

You were very lucky. Same with early buyers of the Dutch and Dutch 8C. Back then these companies were still establishing themselves. With either you would have made a great bet because now they can charge nearly double for the same product.

I don’t consider this greed in any way just priced to what they are worth now given both companies are successful and they will have service and support for years to come.

 

[srrxr71]

I use Trinnov Nova currently. It has decent sub integration

I can’t imagine a better or easier way to integrate a sub. Certainly I don’t have the time or patience to try with a MiniDSP. Possibly a receiver with Dirac?

 

[prestigetone]

It says solid Oak but there is a birch plywood layer under the Oak. At least the ones I owned 3 years ago had that.

Edit: still do

Did it have plywood even under the oak? This image seems to show that the ply is only for bracing. and the wood goes up the entire sides. Nevermind about my comment on you selling your D&D. I can see you did. What do you run now?

The Kiis look great in a compact package but I just wish manufacturers would have volume control down and everything in the digital domain. Other than the Kefs and other HDMI based speakers, no one in these ultra high end markets has made the interface or usability consumer friendly. IMO.

 

[srrxr71]

Did it have plywood even under the oak? This image seems to show that the ply is only for bracing. and the wood goes up the entire sides. Nevermind about my comment on you selling your D&D. I can see you did. What do you run now?

View attachment 387464

The Kiis look great in a compact package but I just wish manufacturers would have volume control down and everything in the digital domain. Other than the Kefs and other HDMI based speakers, no one in these ultra high end markets has made the interface or usability consumer friendly. IMO.

Frankly I’d rather these folks stick with what they know and do well. An example that solves this problem is the Blusound Node.

It breaks or some new format comes in no big deal. Get the new one for about $500. Better than having these folks waste their time talents on a whole other discipline. Even Blusound needed time to iron out their firmware. They sell a lot more volume and can dedicate far more resources to that kind of development. It’s just too much to ask KEF or Dutch and Dutch or KI audio to do this.

They all want to do it to offer this “lifestyle” product thing but frankly they would do better to partner with or rebrand something that works.

The KEF first gen LS50w not fun to use. I also heard similar things about Devialet.

IMHO giving up on such wonderfully designed fully DSP active loudspeakers because some feature didn’t materialize is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It’s has AES ports just put a 3rd party streamer on it that does what you need.

 

[prestigetone]

Frankly I’d rather these folks stick with what they know and do well. An example that solves this problem is the Blusound Node.

It breaks or some new format comes in no big deal. Get the new one for about $500. Better than having these folks waste their time talents on a whole other discipline. Even Blusound needed time to iron out their firmware. They sell a lot more volume and can dedicate far more resources to that kind of development. It’s just too much to ask KEF or Dutch and Dutch or KI audio to do this.

They all want to do it to offer this “lifestyle” product thing but frankly they would do better to partner with or rebrand something that works.

The KEF first gen LS50w not fun to use. I also heard similar things about Devialet.

IMHO giving up on such wonderfully designed fully DSP active loudspeakers because some feature didn’t materialize is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It’s has AES ports just put a 3rd party streamer on it that does what you need.

All good points. Will the Blue do digital volume control? The only way to do this through D&D that I know of is through a digital to digital converter with a volume pot, or Genelec will do it with their own remote but you need to convert your toslink to AES. Kii has their own but the controller is physical and clunky. D&D does have their own Internet address volume control but it becomes really cumbersome when you just want to watch TV and need to open your phone or an app every time. Physical remotes still do a great job for volume.

 

[Emlin]

All good points. Will the Blue do digital volume control? The only way to do this through D&D that I know of is through a digital to digital converter with a volume pot, or Genelec will do it with their own remote but you need to convert your toslink to AES. Kii has their own but the controller is physical and clunky. D&D does have their own Internet address volume control but it becomes really cumbersome when you just want to watch TV and need to open your phone or an app every time. Physical remotes still do a great job for volume.

The Kii controller has an IR sensor so you can use an Apple remote to control the volume, source selection etc.

 

[JustJones]

Did it have plywood even under the oak? This image seems to show that the ply is only for bracing. and the wood goes up the entire sides. Nevermind about my comment on you selling your D&D. I can see you did. What do you run now?

View attachment 387464

The Kiis look great in a compact package but I just wish manufacturers would have volume control down and everything in the digital domain. Other than the Kefs and other HDMI based speakers, no one in these ultra high end markets has made the interface or usability consumer friendly. IMO.

Mine were like these. Keep the Oak oiled like good hardwood furniture.

 

[srrxr71]

All good points. Will the Blue do digital volume control? The only way to do this through D&D that I know of is through a digital to digital converter with a volume pot, or Genelec will do it with their own remote but you need to convert your toslink to AES. Kii has their own but the controller is physical and clunky. D&D does have their own Internet address volume control but it becomes really cumbersome when you just want to watch TV and need to open your phone or an app every time. Physical remotes still do a great job for volume.

Blusound is not a bad system. It can take HDMi and output coaxial. I personally had it connected via USB to a Topping D10B just so I can switch sources with a USB switch or just changing the cable.

It will handle airplay and has integrations with Amazon music and Spotify I believe. There is an app with which you can control volume, source and even music selection. I prefer their native apps but it’s not a bad app to get used to.

It makes your system basically consumer level simple. For example any non technical person can pick up their app and use it. With airplay you can just AirPlay to it and control music and volume on the Apple Music app.

There are other options like WiiM streamer as well. There must be others i’m not aware of.

As for coaxial to AES I just use a coax to BNC cable and a Neutrik converter. If you get a Trinnov it does coax to AES for you.

 

[prestigetone]

The Kii controller has an IR sensor so you can use an Apple remote to control the volume, source selection etc.

Really nice. I did not know this, only issue is that it's a huge extra added cost and clunky. I just want a remote that is automatically integrated with the speakers.

 

[srrxr71]

Really nice. I did not know this, only issue is that it's a huge extra added cost and clunky. I just want a remote that is automatically integrated with the speakers.

That remote costs $25 and according to what he said is functional with these speakers. They could work on a $200 custom remote but they were smart to just adopt an inexpensive ubiquitous remote that is easily bought and is well designed.

If you meant buying the KIi control unit itself I agree with you. Whether it’s something you want to purchase is dependent on your own needs.

These companies have moved the earth to drop 4 dacs and 4 amps, one for each driver and also worked out cardioid dispersion on top of otherwise controlled dispersion.

Now that Kii audio is calling this a “lifestyle” system they have opened up that can of worms and now will be judged for QOL and comveniences they offer with the product. Maybe that’s part of why they are still not available on the market yet.

Doing the software development for a “lifestyle” product giving it that “lifestyle” feature set probably was far more than they bargained for.

Even companies with far higher development budgets and experience in software development struggle with that sort of thing.

Devialet had an amazing product but they failed because they promised and integrated all that consumer lifestyle stuff into the product. As great as they sound people don’t use them anymore because it has to be used with their app which people could not stomach.

Sometimes the companies that play to their strengths and make excellent studio monitors and focus on that come out ahead. It works with anything if you get the right 3rd party source for your needs. You want AirPlay get a Wiim. You want to play straight off a phone or tablet get a topping d10. Keeping their system platform agnostic avoids all these issues.

 

[prestigetone]

That remote costs $25 and according to what he said is functional with these speakers. They could work on a $200 custom remote but they were smart to just adopt an inexpensive ubiquitous remote that is easily bought and is well designed.

I think they said the Apple remote works with the kii controller which is $1.5k.

 

[srrxr71]

I think they said the Apple remote works with the kii controller which is $1.5k.

Yeah that’s a problem. I don’t have a Kii audio system nor have I used one. I don’t know how important having the controller is to the system.

For me as long as it accepts AES you can find 3rd party solutions. Now it depends on how you feel about digital volume control being done at the source vs directly in the speaker (probably also via pure digital math) but it is possible that it could be done on the amp units themselves but I somehow doubt it.

Edit: personally I got into a similar situation with the Trinnov and it’s expensive La Remote. I just got it to try it. I don’t use any of its functions other than the volume knob. It’s a nice volume knob no doubt but obscenely priced for just that. I probably would have been better off setting that unit to a fixed level and using the Genelec volume control instead which they do have for about $99. Both are wired though. If I needed a wireless solution I would have to go 3rd party.

Truth is these are near field monitors. Limited by the stereo format itself. There is only one sweet spot and sitting close and in the middle is what brings out the magic. So using a wired remote is ok for me.

For room filling sound I would just get a Sonos which is also a fully active DSP solution and state of the art for its intended purpose.

I’ve had the problem of imagining what i would use the system for and what it is capable of. I think maybe I could throw parties with it. Maybe listen in groups. These products are really for sitting in the middle right up front and not useful for other purposes. When you realize that you also realize the solutions they offer are sufficient for their intended purpose.