New Jico SAS stylus = crazy mistracking / sibilance

[NightHawk]

Well, here we go...

My System:
-Technics SL 1210 GR2
- Lightweight Headshell (weighing 7.33g)
- Headshell cables replaced with pure silver ones. (can't remember the exact ones I bought anymore)
- Shure V15 IV with Jico Sas/B stylus
- Musical Fidelity V90-LPS PreAmp
- Evga NuAudio soundcard

I used to have a Shure V15 IV with an original VN45MR stylus that was working flawlessly. Until i by accident got too close to the stylus with my finger and the cantilever snapped off...

Since these original styli are pretty much unobtanium, I opted for "the next best" thing and got myself a Jico Sas on Boron stylus as a replacement.

However with this new stylus, once I tried re-ripping one of my records, I noticed an ungodly amount of mistracking / sibilance. I checked an old rip of the same record i had done with the VN45MR stylus and it performed MUCH better.

I've since done the following:
- Re-checked alignment. The Protractor I printed doesn't exactly match the little plastic thing the Technics came with. Using said plastic "thing", the stylus sits towards the front of the null points / arc. That said it is really hard to even see the small stylus tip and align it with the little arrow.
Both aligning it to the technics gauge and the protractor didn't fix the issue though I think it might be ever so slightly worse using the printed protractor.
It is from "https://alignmentprotractor.com" with the Technics SL 1210 GR2 data put in. The print is correct (1 cm measures 1 cm)

- Tried different VTA. I think even at the lowest setting the arm is ever so slightly "tails up". Going higher made the issue slightly worse.

- Tried different VTF. Going well above the rated maximum of 1.25g. At 2g the mistracking was greatly reduced, at 2.5g the issue was gone.
But the cart is almost bottoming out at that point, and even at the max antiskate setting the arm is skating towards the inside at that point.

- Tried raising the record by stacking up to 3 trashed ones underneath the slipmat. It did almost resolve the issue, but the spindle barely pokes out the top and this seems very unnaturally high up for the platter.

- Ran the stylus in a locked groove (in the center of a test record side) overnight in case of "burn in" time needed.

- Tried varying the Antiskate. No difference.

___

I'm really running out of ideas and i'm starting to regret the purchase of the Jico Sas/B stylus. Maybe I should have spend double on a used VN45-MR and take a gamble on it's future lifespan...

I mean it CAN track, but at like double the reccomended VTF or with the platter raised by like a finger...

Current alignment (sorry, my phone camera isn't that good):






Looking at the cantilever I do notice it is much more "angled" than the old VN45MR stylus, wich had a slight bend before the stylus tip. The only picture I can find of an old stock one (and not the countless replacements) is this:

wich is currently on sale from Japan for 540€ for a used (and untested?) one...


Maybe the stylus rake angle is poor on the Jico?, wich I have never heard of people having issues with before. Most people seem to rave about the Jicos instead.
I can't relate at this point.

Here are the bunch of test recordings using different settings I've made. Note: this by far isn't the worst portion of audio, but a clear pinpointable example.
"It's not hard to go the diSStance" (right channel mistracking)
Record is a Mint copy of:

https://www.discogs.com/release/26031499-Daft-Punk-Discovery

Spoiler

Original VN45MR stylus (old rip):

VN45MR.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with the Technics plastic gauge, 1.25g VTF (max reccomended) at "0" VTA setting:

plastic gauge alignment - 1.25g - VTA0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "0" VTA:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e5KZ6H22_A9IZTOnA-b4izKgRGA-OJF-/view?usp=sharing

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "2" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 1.25g vta 2.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2.5g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2.5g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

I also tried the "tracking weight and sidethrust" testbands on an old test record I have from 1969:

https://www.discogs.com/release/1358752-No-Artist-Hi-Fi-Sound-Stereo-Test-Record

Track 3 "Determination Of Minimum Tracking Weight And Sidethrust Correction Settings. Lateral And Vertical Modulation At Two Recorded Levels"

Band A: 300hz lateral. + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band B: 300hz lateral. + 15dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band C: 300Hz vertical + 8dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band D: 300Hz vertical + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude

my system can only clear the 2 lower modulated bands. While the lateral +15dB band only distorts slightly, the vertical Band D has distorted harmonics of the 300hz tone like crazy.

Am I missing something obvious, or am I just screwed / spoiled by the original VN45MR stylus?

 

[Balle Clorin]

The Jico SAS B for V15-IV has a VTA of about 29 degrees, I know I have it. I added a 6degree shim from Pats Audioparts(made for Dual of something).
Still my Jico tracked very well with or without shim at 1.25-1.5 grams VTF.
Since the record is very old it may be damaged from before and sounds bad before your cartridge? tracking +15db horisontal is good enough by far, I would think +12db vertical does not exist in any music records. I suggest you try the current Ortofon test record for both Azimuth/crosstalk and tracking. In my experience the Jico tracks even better when Azimuth is optimal... Tracking 70um on the Ortofon record is about the minumum to expect. If it does not track 60um it may mistrack on some music, even if most music is below 50um capability.

You may have gotten a bad sample...

here is mine, before shimming, it did 100um this correspond to 15db I think, hardy any cartridges does more , many MC cannot do more than 70um max

If you use the brush add at least 0.25 gram

 

[Jose Jimenez]

That is a very nice turntable system. One time I had a V15 Type IV but the stylus elastomer hardened like a rock and that was over 25 years ago.

Just curious, do you have an idea what the arm/cartridge resonance would be in either direction? The vertical distortion is what triggered my interest in your issue.

 

[Dark Blue Mica]

at 2.5g the issue was gone.

Maybe in those words lies your answer.

In recente years while looking for the end-all be-all golden unicorn, I mean a cheap alternative to Audio Técnica and Ortofon, I tried:

On a "Dual" branded AT91 cart, I used a swiss black diamond with a claimed vtf 1.5-2.0gr. Sound was bad, suspension didn't move. SRA/VTA/cantilever only got proper until I increased the VTF above 3.5, sound became better. For AT carts I use a phono stage with input caps removed.

I have a Shure M35X, bought it new. Later bought the Jico needle for the 0.75gs-1.5gr VTF (M44GX). Sound was off, not the same male voices. Changed matt and tonearm height until the cart was pointing to the moon, then the stylus and cantilever looked proper. Put everything back to normal, increased in VTF to 3.0 or above made it better sounding.
Bought a NOS M44GX, SRA/cantilever is at normal angles between 1.1 and 1.2gr VTF. sound is similar to M35X.

Recently bought a new Jico J44D cart, set it up at VTF 1.1 or 1.2gr. When the music started, It felt as if Jico had pointed a gun to my forehead and galloped away to the Sunshine with my gold coins. It really felt sour. Sound was hollow. No highs. Sound improved above 3.0gr VTF. Can't recall if I changed tonearm angle, but I increased VTF to DJ levels: 5.0gr. looked at the cantilever and stylus with a magnifying glass, and it seemed to have proper angles, and I gave up on that cart.
...My gold coins galloping away in someone else's pocket.

I have a Shure V15IV without stylus. Sometimes here in the forum I look at FR charts and think about buying a Jico SAS for the V15IV or the M35X (V15xV engine?) and my mind tells me "you will regret". Why? Because it seems to me that nobody cares about what they're putting on their aftermarket needles, or has knowledge about what they are doing. And 1 size fits all.
Shure claimed that sourcing components lead them to shut down the cart business. And they knew what they were putting on their products. I remember their QC was being bashed hard on the internet.

 

[Thomas_A]

Well, here we go...

My System:
-Technics SL 1210 GR2
- Lightweight Headshell (weighing 7.33g)
- Headshell cables replaced with pure silver ones. (can't remember the exact ones I bought anymore)
- Shure V15 IV with Jico Sas/B stylus
- Musical Fidelity V90-LPS PreAmp
- Evga NuAudio soundcard

I used to have a Shure V15 IV with an original VN45MR stylus that was working flawlessly. Until i by accident got too close to the stylus with my finger and the cantilever snapped off...

Since these original styli are pretty much unobtanium, I opted for "the next best" thing and got myself a Jico Sas on Boron stylus as a replacement.

However with this new stylus, once I tried re-ripping one of my records, I noticed an ungodly amount of mistracking / sibilance. I checked an old rip of the same record i had done with the VN45MR stylus and it performed MUCH better.

I've since done the following:
- Re-checked alignment. The Protractor I printed doesn't exactly match the little plastic thing the Technics came with. Using said plastic "thing", the stylus sits towards the front of the null points / arc. That said it is really hard to even see the small stylus tip and align it with the little arrow.
Both aligning it to the technics gauge and the protractor didn't fix the issue though I think it might be ever so slightly worse using the printed protractor.
It is from "https://alignmentprotractor.com" with the Technics SL 1210 GR2 data put in. The print is correct (1 cm measures 1 cm)

- Tried different VTA. I think even at the lowest setting the arm is ever so slightly "tails up". Going higher made the issue slightly worse.

- Tried different VTF. Going well above the rated maximum of 1.25g. At 2g the mistracking was greatly reduced, at 2.5g the issue was gone.
But the cart is almost bottoming out at that point, and even at the max antiskate setting the arm is skating towards the inside at that point.

- Tried raising the record by stacking up to 3 trashed ones underneath the slipmat. It did almost resolve the issue, but the spindle barely pokes out the top and this seems very unnaturally high up for the platter.

- Ran the stylus in a locked groove (in the center of a test record side) overnight in case of "burn in" time needed.

- Tried varying the Antiskate. No difference.

___

I'm really running out of ideas and i'm starting to regret the purchase of the Jico Sas/B stylus. Maybe I should have spend double on a used VN45-MR and take a gamble on it's future lifespan...

I mean it CAN track, but at like double the reccomended VTF or with the platter raised by like a finger...

Current alignment (sorry, my phone camera isn't that good):
View attachment 514130
View attachment 514127
View attachment 514128
View attachment 514129
View attachment 514126

Looking at the cantilever I do notice it is much more "angled" than the old VN45MR stylus, wich had a slight bend before the stylus tip. The only picture I can find of an old stock one (and not the countless replacements) is this:
View attachment 514133
wich is currently on sale from Japan for 540€ for a used (and untested?) one...


Maybe the stylus rake angle is poor on the Jico?, wich I have never heard of people having issues with before. Most people seem to rave about the Jicos instead.
I can't relate at this point.

Here are the bunch of test recordings using different settings I've made. Note: this by far isn't the worst portion of audio, but a clear pinpointable example.
"It's not hard to go the diSStance" (right channel mistracking)
Record is a Mint copy of:

https://www.discogs.com/release/26031499-Daft-Punk-Discovery

Spoiler

Original VN45MR stylus (old rip):

VN45MR.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with the Technics plastic gauge, 1.25g VTF (max reccomended) at "0" VTA setting:

plastic gauge alignment - 1.25g - VTA0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "0" VTA:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e5KZ6H22_A9IZTOnA-b4izKgRGA-OJF-/view?usp=sharing

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "2" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 1.25g vta 2.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2.5g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2.5g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

I also tried the "tracking weight and sidethrust" testbands on an old test record I have from 1969:

https://www.discogs.com/release/1358752-No-Artist-Hi-Fi-Sound-Stereo-Test-Record

Track 3 "Determination Of Minimum Tracking Weight And Sidethrust Correction Settings. Lateral And Vertical Modulation At Two Recorded Levels"

Band A: 300hz lateral. + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band B: 300hz lateral. + 15dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band C: 300Hz vertical + 8dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band D: 300Hz vertical + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude

my system can only clear the 2 lower modulated bands. While the lateral +15dB band only distorts slightly, the vertical Band D has distorted harmonics of the 300hz tone like crazy.

Am I missing something obvious, or am I just screwed / spoiled by the original VN45MR stylus?

I've both the Shure V15Vx and V15V

Have used 3 JICO SAS/B of the V15Vx and one for the V15V. Have ordered a spare one for the V15V.

All have tracked good at 1.25 g.One stylus was sent back due to poor channel separation, got a new with good spec.

All tracked good at 1.25 g.

For those who would like VTA shims, I have a bunch.

 

[Thomas_A]

Well, here we go...

My System:
-Technics SL 1210 GR2
- Lightweight Headshell (weighing 7.33g)
- Headshell cables replaced with pure silver ones. (can't remember the exact ones I bought anymore)
- Shure V15 IV with Jico Sas/B stylus
- Musical Fidelity V90-LPS PreAmp
- Evga NuAudio soundcard

I used to have a Shure V15 IV with an original VN45MR stylus that was working flawlessly. Until i by accident got too close to the stylus with my finger and the cantilever snapped off...

Since these original styli are pretty much unobtanium, I opted for "the next best" thing and got myself a Jico Sas on Boron stylus as a replacement.

However with this new stylus, once I tried re-ripping one of my records, I noticed an ungodly amount of mistracking / sibilance. I checked an old rip of the same record i had done with the VN45MR stylus and it performed MUCH better.

I've since done the following:
- Re-checked alignment. The Protractor I printed doesn't exactly match the little plastic thing the Technics came with. Using said plastic "thing", the stylus sits towards the front of the null points / arc. That said it is really hard to even see the small stylus tip and align it with the little arrow.
Both aligning it to the technics gauge and the protractor didn't fix the issue though I think it might be ever so slightly worse using the printed protractor.
It is from "https://alignmentprotractor.com" with the Technics SL 1210 GR2 data put in. The print is correct (1 cm measures 1 cm)

- Tried different VTA. I think even at the lowest setting the arm is ever so slightly "tails up". Going higher made the issue slightly worse.

- Tried different VTF. Going well above the rated maximum of 1.25g. At 2g the mistracking was greatly reduced, at 2.5g the issue was gone.
But the cart is almost bottoming out at that point, and even at the max antiskate setting the arm is skating towards the inside at that point.

- Tried raising the record by stacking up to 3 trashed ones underneath the slipmat. It did almost resolve the issue, but the spindle barely pokes out the top and this seems very unnaturally high up for the platter.

- Ran the stylus in a locked groove (in the center of a test record side) overnight in case of "burn in" time needed.

- Tried varying the Antiskate. No difference.

___

I'm really running out of ideas and i'm starting to regret the purchase of the Jico Sas/B stylus. Maybe I should have spend double on a used VN45-MR and take a gamble on it's future lifespan...

I mean it CAN track, but at like double the reccomended VTF or with the platter raised by like a finger...

Current alignment (sorry, my phone camera isn't that good):
View attachment 514130
View attachment 514127
View attachment 514128
View attachment 514129
View attachment 514126

Looking at the cantilever I do notice it is much more "angled" than the old VN45MR stylus, wich had a slight bend before the stylus tip. The only picture I can find of an old stock one (and not the countless replacements) is this:
View attachment 514133
wich is currently on sale from Japan for 540€ for a used (and untested?) one...


Maybe the stylus rake angle is poor on the Jico?, wich I have never heard of people having issues with before. Most people seem to rave about the Jicos instead.
I can't relate at this point.

Here are the bunch of test recordings using different settings I've made. Note: this by far isn't the worst portion of audio, but a clear pinpointable example.
"It's not hard to go the diSStance" (right channel mistracking)
Record is a Mint copy of:

https://www.discogs.com/release/26031499-Daft-Punk-Discovery

Spoiler

Original VN45MR stylus (old rip):

VN45MR.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with the Technics plastic gauge, 1.25g VTF (max reccomended) at "0" VTA setting:

plastic gauge alignment - 1.25g - VTA0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "0" VTA:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e5KZ6H22_A9IZTOnA-b4izKgRGA-OJF-/view?usp=sharing

Alignment with Protractor, 1.25g VTF , "2" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 1.25g vta 2.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

Alignment with Protractor, 2.5g VTF , "0" VTA:

protractor-alignment, 2.5g vta 0.flac

drive.google.com

I also tried the "tracking weight and sidethrust" testbands on an old test record I have from 1969:

https://www.discogs.com/release/1358752-No-Artist-Hi-Fi-Sound-Stereo-Test-Record

Track 3 "Determination Of Minimum Tracking Weight And Sidethrust Correction Settings. Lateral And Vertical Modulation At Two Recorded Levels"

Band A: 300hz lateral. + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band B: 300hz lateral. + 15dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band C: 300Hz vertical + 8dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude
Band D: 300Hz vertical + 12dB ref. 1.12x10-³cm peak amplitude

my system can only clear the 2 lower modulated bands. While the lateral +15dB band only distorts slightly, the vertical Band D has distorted harmonics of the 300hz tone like crazy.

Am I missing something obvious, or am I just screwed / spoiled by the original VN45MR stylus?

I've listened and looked at your clips. Both the original VN45MR and the next file 1.25 g 0 VTA settings sounds and measures very similar in the "diSSStane" part. Right channel peaks at 10 kHz in that sound sss.

 

[sqrl]

I use a USB microscope to align. If you set it up so the central front-back axis of the protractor is vertical on your screen, all you have to fiddle with is the cartridge and not a lens or phone camera etc. at the same time. You only need max 20x for that and you can get one for a lot cheaper than a stylus. Also, you can check VTA from the side.