New JBL Summit Speakers

[Travis]

We were the first organization to aggressively put the standard to use, generating CEA-2034 reports (and debugging the spec!). Prior to that, we had some done by Audioholics but they were not in full form as we do (they don't include low frequency response due to outdoor measurements). This substantially broadened understanding of this work and this style of measurements. Prior to this, only "those of us in know" knew about this work and further, lacked actual measurements across wide range of speakers we wanted to buy.

That’s all very interesting, I do recall reading the thread in real time here about getting clarification from Klipple about whether their system, software, produced data in line with what the draft of the standard was going to be and how to provide input. Seems like a decade ago but probably 5 or 6.

My question was more basic, when USER said “its” did he mean Harman, or was there separate research by ASR (the collective) on this. If there was I was going to take a deeper dive. Your response answered that you took it as Harman research.

If it was Harman (Spinorama) then I was going to ask USER why popularizing the standard (if I understood him correctly), resulted in Harman “being cold” towards ASR which I would have thought would be the opposite. (Being that Dr. Toole’s “life’s work” was Spinorama measurements (first published in 1985 when he was still at NRC), refined at Harman/JBL, confirmed and correlated by Dr. Olive at NRC, further refined and end up being embraced at ASR in a practical way for consumers.

I was trying to see if if I read that right.

 

[USER]

If it was Harman (Spinorama) then I was going to ask USER why popularizing the standard (if I understood him correctly), resulted in Harman “being cold” towards ASR which I would have thought would be the opposite. (Being that Dr. Toole’s “life’s work” was Spinorama measurements (first published in 1985 when he was still at NRC), refined at Harman/JBL, confirmed and correlated by Dr. Olive at NRC, further refined and end up being embraced at ASR in a practical way for consumers.

Yes, that's how I understand the situation as having gone down. I found it striking.

And one reason could be that they are a for profit business and their legitimate competitive advantage has been taken away from them. That would be my hunch. The whole point was that their speakers sounded better than others in blind tests. Now you can get similar responses for a fraction of the cost. But to get to the point I was making: time and time again Amir has written about being left cold by his contacts at Harman, and it seems that this started happenning when he started measuring Revel speakers (and speakers in general). Here's one example:

Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

What’s up with the trough between 80 and 300, looks like more than a room mode... can you try pulling one speaker out into the room and measuring with mic at ~1m? Other than that you have very impressive in room bass response from those speakers! 25 hz!

audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately most research these days does not happen for the sake of pushing human knowledge or to empower consumers. Not that it ever did, mind you. War, whether hot or Cold drove a lot of most important research of the 20th century. But there has been a qualitative change when it comes to the relationship between university research and industry in recent years. You can follow how institutions such as MIT have changed during the last 20 years or so and how integrated they have become with industry. Start-ups seem to be the goal of higher education now. If you don't believe me you can read one of myriad books on the subject published by MIT itself, lol.

https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/3559/Knowledge-for-SaleThe-Neoliberal-Takeover-of

And again, this is a part of a bigger issue as academic knowledge in America has been pretty much closed off from the public from the start so it is unfair to single anyone out. (It's just super interesting to me when the topic is one of our senses!) What common person has access to JSTOR? A poor kid literally died over this issue. But I am not here to debate academia and no one wants this thread to go off course, so I won't comment any further on this topic.

Anyways, times now are so different from when Dr. Toole was working that you can't really compare what Harman was doing then to what it is doing now. Finally, if I recall correctly, Harman is no longer being as open about their research as they used to be. (Does anyone else recall this being expressed publicly a couple of years ago? I believe there was discussion about this here but I could be wrong.) Whether things changed after Samsung bought them out or not I do not know. (And again, some people like Sean Olive seem to be much more open so who knows if it is just speaker reseach that is shying away from ASR.) It will be interesting to see if Harman releases white papers for their upcoming speakers and how they compare to what KEF is releasing. One good thing is that we can extract a lot of information from the measurements folks like Amir provide thanks in large part to Dr. Toole and Harman. Teach a man to fish...

Edit: Yes, I recalled correctly. They are no longer sharing research and it seems for the reasons I stated. We are back to a closed box system. From our great friend himself:

HBK Headphone Measurement Talks from Head-Fi and Sean Olive

Bruel & Kjaer (BK), makers of precision acoustic measurement products, had a nice two day virtual conference. I wanted to listen to a bunch of them but had a major conflict. Fortunately, I watched two talks related to headphone measurements: First one was by Jude Mansilla of Head-fi with the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Travis]

Yes, that's how I understand the situation as having gone down. I found it striking.

And one reason could be that they are a for profit business and their legitimate competitive advantage has been taken away from them. That would be my hunch. The whole point was that their speakers sounded better than others in blind tests. Now you can get similar responses for a fraction of the cost. But to get to the point I was making: time and time again Amir has written about being left cold by his contacts at Harman, and it seems that this started happenning when he started measuring Revel speakers (and speakers in general). Here's one example:

Revel F208 Tower Speaker Review

What’s up with the trough between 80 and 300, looks like more than a room mode... can you try pulling one speaker out into the room and measuring with mic at ~1m? Other than that you have very impressive in room bass response from those speakers! 25 hz!

audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately most research these days does not happen for the sake of pushing human knowledge or to empower consumers. Not that it ever did, mind you. War, whether hot or Cold drove a lot of most important research of the 20th century. But there has been a qualitative change when it comes to the relationship between university research and industry in recent years. You can follow how institutions such as MIT have changed during the last 20 years or so and how integrated they have become with industry. Start-ups seem to be the goal of higher education now. If you don't believe me you can read one of myriad books on the subject published by MIT itself, lol.

https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/3559/Knowledge-for-SaleThe-Neoliberal-Takeover-of

And again, this is a part of a bigger issue as academic knowledge in America has been pretty much closed off from the public from the start so it is unfair to single anyone out. (It's just super interesting to me when the topic is one of our senses!) What common person has access to JSTOR? A poor kid literally died over this issue. But I am not here to debate academia and no one wants this thread to go off course, so I won't comment any further on this topic.

Anyways, times now are so different from when Dr. Toole was working that you can't really compare what Harman was doing then to what it is doing now. Finally, if I recall correctly, Harman is no longer being as open about their research as they used to be. (Does anyone else recall this being expressed publicly a couple of years ago? I believe there was discussion about this here but I could be wrong.) Whether things changed after Samsung bought them out or not I do not know. (And again, some people like Sean Olive seem to be much more open so who knows if it is just speaker reseach that is shying away from ASR.) It will be interesting to see if Harman releases white papers for their upcoming speakers and how they compare to what KEF is releasing. One good thing is that we can extract a lot of information from the measurements folks like Amir provide thanks in large part to Dr. Toole and Harman. Teach a man to fish...

Thank you. I’m not on here enough to catch an example like you gave that led you to that correlation, which is why I asked.

I recall that Dr. Olive posted publicly that all of his research was being directed towards headphone (scaling back), and the emphasis was on Spatial Audio/immersion and multichannel music. I believe he even said that there wouldn’t be more follow up to research on preference score, that was it. It was commented on in here as to what focus of Harman/Olive research was going (or not going).

He announced his resignation from Harman last week but he will be at the AES show this summer in Helsinki to present a paper.


Your point on the sharing of research struck a chord because I have raised it with some of the Life Fellows at AES, or who closely associated with them if they would have published “that paper” (from the 60s 70s, or 80s announcing “breakthrough, advancement) in today’s competitive environment (I have been asking the question going back about 15 years). Nearly all of the ones who worked for a company said “No” you can’t do it unless you have a patent pending. If you look at the seminal papers from AES in late 50s into the 60s and 70s, even the 80s, there seemed to be a much more free exchange of information related to what they had found and published. Quite a lot of it was private sector research.

Some of that spirit remains, M-Sound from Meyer Sound being available to anyone (as long as you don’t mess with it) as one example.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[GXAlan]

Some of that spirit remains, M-Sound from Meyer Sound being available to anyone (as long as you don’t mess with it) as one example.

I think Meyer Sound being a privately held, family-run company makes something like that possible. In their mind, it’s great to make great speakers, pay their employees a living wage in Berkeley, and I’m sure John and Helen don’t have to worry about a mortgage or have a need for more money just for more money’s sake. That culture is part of what makes Meyer Sound interesting.

Harman was the same under Sidney Harman.

If I want to vote with my wallet, I just buy Meyer Sound speakers.

If I am an investor, I want a company to help me get my return on investment and sharing secrets with the competition may not be the best way to deliver that ROI. Also, to be fair, M-Sound is also able to make their products advertise higher peak SPLs, which is good for marketing.

 

[fcracer]

Nicely done short promo of the three new models:

I feel like we went back to the 1990’s with this design. Even if it has a super flat frequency response and perfect dispersion, I just can’t get over the looks.

 

[Flaesh]

JBL Pro M2 en version "rococo sauvage à moumoute": l'enceinte monitor High End façon Trump Mansion

Des poils, du bois exotique... les fans du copilote Wookie de Han Solo se reconnaîtront peut-être dans cette version customisée de l'enceinte monitor Pro JBL M2. Mais on la verrait bien aussi dans la décoration des appartements de la Trump Tower de l’actuel président américain...

www.on-mag.fr

 

[James240]

Oof at that pricing bookshelfs might be approaching 30k AUD!!

 

[sebackman]

Hi all,

We spent a few days at the Munich High End. Lots of good stuff, lots of crazy stuff and all expensive stuff.

We went to Harman and spent some time there. Most focus was on Summit and new Mark Levinson amps. The rest was really low/mid end.

Not at good room with lots of ambient noise and very wide stance. The back wall was all glass. Others had build dampened “listening room” in their rooms. It was hard to form an honest opinion about the new Summits, but first impression was good. Someone compared to 708, which I also like, but this is something different. The LSR's are really made for short distance listening whereas these are for reasonable living room size listening. All 3 of them

ML amps are impressive as always but crazy expensive for the performance. Imho at least 50% is brand price… There are other brands with similar or better specs for a fraction of their price. I love a good class AB amp but time has caught up with that technology.

The new Sumit's was very nice and sounded really good. But… the large version was predicted to sell at 45 k$, which is crazy for a passive mid sized consumer speaker. Its a (claimed) completely new 12” woofer, new 8” and “decal-hotted” D2 called 2830k. The new model number is based upon “improved tolerances” and that they claim to now build them in Luxury's own factories.

In fact, the sales rep claimed that Pro and Luxury has/will part ways totally in development and production. Sound like a bit of a sales gimmick as that would increase production cost significant (loss of any economies of scale in production and development).

I asked about how they fair these compared to K2, 4367 (now also discontinued) and M2 and the answer was that these are “way better than all of them”…. Not sure if his “better’” is the same as mine…. The major difference between K2 and the other series is the glorious 4" driver, which in my opinion is a superior driver, (going deeper and more even) but at a price.

It appears that the new K2 series will be revealed next year at the 80`s anniversary. From someone there it sounded that they will sport an all new driver with multiple diaphragms and/or multiple drivers.

Anyway, the use of an 8” below the horn opens for an XO around 1kHz which takes some heat of the D2 below that and also opens for a smaller horn, which is desirable in domestic use. They sounded good albeit not “wow”. But then again the value of such statement is limited due to the room, material played and background noise. It may well be that the room and placing made it difficult to project a deep sound stage.

They do look pretty and finish is much better than earlier JBL speakers. They do look the part of “Luxury”. But at 45 k$ there are many alternatives of which several are active to reduce the additional need for two ML +25 k$ mono blocks…

With a significantly more attractive pricing they would sell loads of these. Now I’m not sure, especially when parting way with Pro which was always the sales slogan in “these are what the Pro’s use to make the music you are listening to”.

They may need to figure out who their customers are for this series. The purist audiophile nerds will probably not buy JBL’s regardless how good they objectively are. And your everyday mom&pop will not invest 45 k$ in a pair of speakers. Next year a new K2 series will be launched to capture the wealthy buyers. Difficult balance.

Rock on

//Rob

 

[Pearljam5000]

Why didn't they make them active?

 

[MoreWatts]

I stumbled across this photo of the complete line-up of the new and re-freshed Summit Series, on a Chinese headphone website. This includes the new Everest and K2 models. The photo was posted there on 14 Oct 2024. I don't think JBL has officially shown or announced the refreshed Everest and K2 models. Nice to see JBL has not abandoned the 15-inch woofer.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I stumbled across this photo of the complete line-up of the new and re-freshed Summit Series, on a Chinese headphone website. This includes the new Everest and K2 models. The photo was posted there on 14 Oct 2024. I don't think JBL has officially shown or announced the refreshed Everest and K2 models. Nice to see JBL has not abandoned the 15-inch woofer.

View attachment 454388

View attachment 454389

What a beast

 

[cavedriver]

It's interesting that each speaker uses a similar size ratio of midbass to bass drivers. Has there been any mention of them using a Nestorovic alignment? I've never actually heard one of his speakers but from all reports it works really well, especially for the cost and size to build it. His Type 5AS used an 8 and a 10, where the ratio here is a bit larger and perhaps too much for his design.

 

[JRR]

I stumbled across this photo of the complete line-up of the new and re-freshed Summit Series, on a Chinese headphone website. This includes the new Everest and K2 models. The photo was posted there on 14 Oct 2024. I don't think JBL has officially shown or announced the refreshed Everest and K2 models. Nice to see JBL has not abandoned the 15-inch woofer.
.

The 1500-AL1 used in the prior series was an underhung Alnico driven monster with a 4" voice coil. Superficially, the new driver seem more conventional.

 

[MattHooper]

FWIW…

Some listening impressions at the show of these new speakers by the sound stage editor.

(not terribly impressed…)

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Has JBL Reached the Summit? The Ama and Makalu Loudspeakers at High End 2025

www.soundstagehifi.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

I heard rumours the entire project was outsourced to China (might explain the appearance) and that the result was not as great as we would perhaps expect from a top of the line JBL. I have not heard them personally, but people I know who were at Munich apparently weren't super impressed either.

I love the large, classic JBLs, so I really wanted them to be good.

 

[Jim_The_Dog]

I prefer the look of JBL Everest DD66000 over these new JBL speakers (I have not seen these new JBL speakers in real life yet, so my opinion may be false).
The DD66000 is a really great audio wise also (and so is its "siblings" DD65000 and DD67000 also, I guess).
That being said, interesting with new speakers from JBL: Would like to see and hear them.

 

[anioq]

When will China get into the high end speaker business? They'll cut the price by 90%. Maybe I should start searching on Taobao.

Edit: well well well, less than a $1000 for a pair, wow even Chinese AV receivers are here now at $200

 

[sigbergaudio]

When will China get into the high end speaker business? They'll cut the price by 90%.

Are you sure? It seems to me 90% of all speakers are already made in China, including many of the expensive ones. And China isn't that much cheaper any more. High quality work isn't free in China either.

 

[ta240]

It is a pita that all high end seems to get even more expensive. I cannot keep up… The M2 was way cheaper.

Gotta start an OF, but wonder who wants to pay for me…

The market is really splitting with the high end going crazy high. I guess there is more profit in exclusivity than there is in quantity.

There is also a very valid possibility that sites like this are shaking up the low end products more than the high end.

As a manufacture would you want to play in an area where companies like AsciLab, Ascend Acoustics or Audio First Designs can come in and trounce the performance of your retail speaker and have news of it spread like wildfire online? Especially when you already have to give up a massive percentage of the price to the distributor and retailer.

Or would you want to make it fancier and sell to people that shop more for the impression it gives in their home and how they feel it sounds when fired up.

Even if the little guys don't continue to grow at exponential rates after the initial interest has worn off, there will be more waiting in the wings.

 

[norman bates]

I doubt the horn (with the beaks in the throat, adding diffraction) sounds better than the 2384 horn that I have.

To my subjective ears, the waveguide I'm using now is better.
But that is a horn crossing @1,200hz, not 650-750hz.
Even then, then 2384 only holds vertical pattern to 2khz (not as tall vs width).

People have preferred 90x40 horns in a home environment.

We've had discussions on the m2 horn on diyaudio.
If I remember, the beaks help for dispersion, or fix a dip directly on axis center beyond near field.....

JBL M2 for The Poors

This afternoon I had an idea for a JBL M2 for those that don't want to drop $10,000. But first, some background on the M2. The compression driver in the M2 is very interesting. It's a dual ring radiator, very similar to the BMS compression drivers, except with two diaphragms instead of one...

www.diyaudio.com