New here looking for help: Deciding between Marantz vs Denon vs. arcam avr20

[funnychap]

Which is fine, no one contests that. What I found disingenuous and perhaps even bordering on trolling was engaging members with the appearance of an open mind, offered a number of testimonials and even provided links to well conducted experiments showing the fallacy of believing that amps sound different enough to consistently identify. This has been performed any number of times spanning decades almost invariably with null results, indicating that whatever perceived differences seemed to vanish under testing conditions. Then you trot out scientific credentials, yet are not enough of a scientist to have an open mind, read the studies, poke holes in them where present, and ask for clarification or links to other studies if you remain unconvinced of their validity. Instead you just seem to wave off the entire discussion with I know there are differences and what I like. Seems like a lot of time was wasted for what seems to have been a foregone conclusion hence my comparison to trolling. Good luck to you--the important thing is the power and beauty of the music and its ability to replenish the soul--on that much I am sure we can all agree.

 

[BDWoody]

lol, when it comes to audio/visual entertainment, I trust my eyes and ears and I don't care about the science.

Then I'm not sure why you are here. If it's just to troll, you can leave now. It is getting pretty tedious.

 

[fpitas]

lol, when it comes to audio/visual entertainment, I trust my eyes and ears and I don't care about the science.

Even though my background is being a web developer/DBA/Sr. Data Engineer for 30 years for several fortune 100 companies. My science background is a B.S. from UCSD in Cognitive Science (Artificial Intelligence/Neuro Biology/Developmental Psychology). The only nonscience education I have is an MBA.

Even if we believe your scientific chops, that statement takes you out of the running as a man of science. Past there, I guess you're here to stir up trouble.

 

[peng]

Which is fine, no one contests that. What I found disingenuous and perhaps even bordering on trolling was engaging members with the appearance of an open mind, offered a number of testimonials and even provided links to well conducted experiments showing the fallacy of believing that amps sound different enough to consistently identify. This has been performed any number of times spanning decades almost invariably with null results, indicating that whatever perceived differences seemed to vanish under testing conditions. Then you trot out scientific credentials, yet are not enough of a scientist to have an open mind, read the studies, poke holes in them where present, and ask for clarification or links to other studies if you remain unconvinced of their validity. Instead you just seem to wave off the entire discussion with I know there are differences and what I like. Seems like a lot of time was wasted for what seems to have been a foregone conclusion hence my comparison to trolling. Good luck to you--the important thing is the power and beauty of the music and its ability to replenish the soul--on that much I am sure we can all agree.

You seem to have a lot more patience than me. He stated, "I'm a man of science but only when it makes sense to apply science.". What does that tell us? Sounds hilarious though.

I suppose he won't bother reading Dr. Floyd Toole's books either even if offered to him free, because Dr. Toole obviously does apply science to audio so it would make no sense to him. At least he seems willing to spend time on this audioscience website...

 

[pseudoid]

Back to the original request for assistance:

...Would love to hear your suggestions...

I am from the camp that is at peace with piece-meal construction of an 'audio' (along with 'video') entertainment system.
Over multi-decade involvement with such efforts, I feel it is best to separate such an entertainment system, into dedicated equipment for each separate function that is currently needed; versus a single ALL-IN-ONE 'A/V' hardware.
*AC/DC power supplies, *power amplification, *analog signal processing, *digital audio conversion (DACs, SPDIF, BT, WiFi, network), *extraction of audio from video sources, and *video signal management.
My main two (2) reasons for such 'separates' system builds are (1)Hardware/Software obsolescence, and (2)Single-Point-Failures (associated with HW/SW).

@amirm has been extremely helpful to me; as he has been doing some worthy testing with HDMI processing hardware/signals (for audio extraction).

Currently, I run a semi-separates system. My future plan is to retire my Rotel AV preAmp/Proc (RSP1576) and split its duties between a dedicated video-subsystem that is separate from all my other requirements.
My A/V hardware renovation/replacement plan is kicking into high-gear, as HDMI2.0 (even @4K) will soon become antiquated...
["soon" as in mid-2024, for me].
YMMV

 

[JRS]

Back to the original request for assistance:

I am from the camp that is at peace with piece-meal construction of an 'audio' (along with 'video') entertainment system.
Over multi-decade involvement with such efforts, I feel it is best to separate such an entertainment system, into dedicated equipment for each separate function that is currently needed; versus a single ALL-IN-ONE 'A/V' hardware.
*AC/DC power supplies, *power amplification, *analog signal processing, *digital audio conversion (DACs, SPDIF, BT, WiFi, network), *extraction of audio from video sources, and *video signal management.
My main two (2) reasons for such 'separates' system builds are (1)Hardware/Software obsolescence, and (2)Single-Point-Failures (associated with HW/SW).

@amirm has been extremely helpful to me; as he has been doing some worthy testing with HDMI processing hardware/signals (for audio extraction).

Currently, I run a semi-separates system. My future plan is to retire my Rotel AV preAmp/Proc (RSP1576) and split its duties between a dedicated video-subsystem that is separate from all my other requirements.
My A/V hardware renovation/replacement plan is kicking into high-gear, as HDMI2.0 (even @4K) will soon become antiquated...
["soon" as in mid-2024, for me].
YMMV

This may be so, but it will be a while before 8k becomes any kind of standard, and at this point wonder whether the improvement will mean much. Going from HD to 4k on an 65 LED with good source material was not that noticeable and I would have been happy with either. I suspect the difference from 4 to 8K will be even smaller. The math* suggests that to notice an appreciable difference at 10' would require a 220" display device. Or this is something we cal all relate to: double "blind" study at 3 different vie.wing distances of an 88" display, there was no preference. So biq question is will this become a standard? Maybe, maybe not except insofar as the increased resolution allows faster temporal resolution--up to 120FPS when settling for an upscaled 4K picture. Great news for sports fans and gamers. There are still two significant problems--assuming thet NF or Amazon decided to netcast at the 8k standard--without compression we are talking 100MPS minimum download speeds. Perhaps a bigger stumbling block is all of the material shot in 720P that is quite serviceable for most duties will absolutely suck in just the same way when you stretch a pic on your phone--it soon becomes fuzzarama.

* The human eye has a maximal spatial resolution of about 1/2 arc minute. Using the approx that theta approximates tan theta at small angles that means the vertical resolution at 6' is about 1.2 mm and at 12' is nearly 2.4 mm. If we take an 85", that's about 75" horizontal width divided by about 7500 pixels =1/10 of an inch or 2.5 mm. Point is we are definitely at diminishing returns. I believe the biggest advantage for HT fans is that the acceptable viewing angle will now be a whopping 100 degrees, essentially twice of what it is now.

And for the ultimate immersive experience audio will be 22.2 channels. At some point we will just have to put a huge bracelet about 6' off your floor punctuated by planar speakers. So while you may be ready for the jump in performance, not sure there will be much at all you can watch. Its pretty much a desert out there, and without a compelling technical reason for the upgrade, how many studios will be biting that financial bullet. 3D on a serious scale would be far more interesting IMO. YMMV

 

[pseudoid]

...This may be so, but it will be a while before 8k...

Thank you, but I merely used HDMI v.XX future upgrade as just an example that can make an AiO obsolete for many improvements we've witnessed in just in the last decade, for/from every part of an A/V system.

 

[JRS]

Thank you, but I merely used HDMI v.XX future upgrade as just an example that can make an AiO obsolete for many improvements we've witnessed in just in the last decade, for/from every part of an A/V system.

And I just mentioned it because so many upgrades are unneeded shortening the time between purchases with no significant increase in entertainment value. ;-D But hey I'm the guy who waits for processors to drop to 1/3 of the original price before using one in a new build. Likewise I believe it will be at least 5 years before upgrades are worthwhile. Look at 4k, that was introduced in 2012.

 

[pseudoid]

Likewise I believe it will be at least 5 years before upgrades are worthwhile. Look at 4k, that was introduced in 2012.

Indeed, longevity and long-term reliability are at the wheel, for most of my product purchase decisions (and w/o caving into to price being the ultimate buying decision).
I bought one of the very last plasma batch (manufactured by LG) when they were released to the wild.
Timeline:
2010/04 - Panasonic Plasma
2014/12 - LG Plasma
2019/02 - LG IPS 4K
2021/03 - LG OLED
Each of my TV upgrades have necessitated updates to my audio (and video) system hardware.
Since I try to plan for upcoming changes (in standards (etc.)) before making buy decisions, the cost impact to my hardware is minimized.
I'd be violating my own buy-decisions if I did an impulse purchase of a [ummm....] AiO A/V receiver (Denon? Marrantz? Arcam?), knowing that in the next few years (=5years) I have to up my TV to whatever HDMI v.XX becomes the standard (regardless of whether my eyes can detect v.XX from the current 4K).

The sucky part of my upgrade-mania is the fact that I end up giving away my old hardware because they just refuse to die at the same intervals as my (above) timeline!

Does the above TL&DR make sense why I suggested to split up the A/V hardware needs into dedicated parts of the system?

 

[Hattrick]

I own an Arcam AVR850 which also has 7 internal Class G amplifiers. You do not need to go crazy and buy another Class G amplifier from Arcam. I had hanging around my studio amp collection a Crown XLS 2500 which is class D and use it for rear height channels only, and sounds just fine for what I am using it for. I did experiment using the crown for L&R and learned by listening that the Class G amps inside the AVR850 sound far more warm and musical than the Crown. However for effect channels it is fine. If I had two buy a two channel amp I would look at some inexpensive options under $500. for height channels. Arcam reason which you probably know is they felt adding more amplifiers would be to crowded in their chassis. I would agree.

 

[quattro98]

I'm not sure if the original poster is still here, but I'd have no problems switching to a Denon receiver with more amp channels. Adding a Purifi amp (or any other good quality amp) for the front two channels would provide 9 channels if you want to keep the Arcam.

Our system is in transition, but I'm using a Denon AVR-X8500HA to power KEF Reference 3 Meta & Reference 2 Meta without any problems. All are high-passed (small) and part of a 5.2 system. In our prior home, the same receiver was used in an 7.2.4 system. We are working on installing a 7.2.4 system here and I'll probably upgrade to a newer receiver if/when Dirac ART is available. In the somewhat distant past, I've used separate (Lexicon MC-12B & LX-7) and when new surround formats came out, I went with a Denon receiver. Having enough power for your speakers, listening level, and room size will help with picking an amp or receiver.