New here looking for help: Deciding between Marantz vs Denon vs. arcam avr20

[JRS]

The Arcam PA240 sounds as awesome as my Arcam AVR5. I think you need to use your ears and not specs.

Example: People say that Class D amps sound bad but my Parasound Zonemaster 2 (class D) sounds awesome as my Arcam AVR5.
People said that the Emotiva BasX-A3 is great for the LCR speakers so I bought one but I found that it lacked dynamic range so I relegated it to powering my surround L and R.

Trust your ears, not youtubers who are making $ off their videos.

I absolutely trust my ears which in spite of many tries, cannot reliably detect any significant differences across a wide spectrum of worthy candidates. Even owned a pair of Classe 500 watt monoblocks for a time valued @ 10k/PR znd quite capable of doubling and redoubling power into 4 and 2 ohms which is rather extraordinary.

What I dont trust is that part of my brain that equates $$ and handsome case/nice knobs with value when it comes to delivering the goods.

I dont listen to YouTube audio gurus nor do I trust manufacturers to tell the truth.

If difference is so obvious why not put together a demo proving it so?

I haunted audio salons for too many years before I realized how poor our hearing is compared to the technology yet how adept our brains were st believing nonsense.

I would bet my house that you cannot reliably differentiate Arcam vs Denon of comparable power. Go ahead and see if you can. Then we can talk about this.

 

[funnychap]

I absolutely trust my ears which in spite of many tries, cannot reliably detect any significant differences across a wide spectrum of worthy candidates. Even owned a pair of Classe 500 watt monoblocks for a time valued @ 10k/PR znd quite capable of doubling and redoubling power into 4 and 2 ohms which is rather extraordinary.

What I dont trust is that part of my brain that equates $$ and handsome case/nice knobs with value when it comes to delivering the goods.

I dont listen to YouTube audio gurus nor do I trust manufacturers to tell the truth.

If difference is so obvious why not put together a demo proving it so?

I haunted audio salons for too many years before I realized how poor our hearing is compared to the technology yet how adept our brains were st believing nonsense.

I would bet my house that you cannot reliably differentiate Arcam vs Denon of comparable power. Go ahead and see if you can. Then we can talk about this.

We all have different hearing abilities. Whenever I can hear an improvement (or features that I want such as trigger input/output), I keep it. If not, I return it. But in life, you'll never know if there's something better until you try it (example: cars, tv, hotels, restaurants, etc.).

 

[JRS]

We all have different hearing abilities. Whenever I can hear an improvement (or features that I want such as trigger input/output), I keep it. If not, I return it. But in life, you'll never know if there's something better until you try it (example: cars, tv, hotels, restaurants, etc.).

Indeed. In my case, been there done that. Also learned along the way how to design and build loudspeakers--which is also when I learned how to listen. Only then did I properly appreciate how unreliable my ears were in detecting 0.5 dB difference. Even a whole dB is difficult in most cases for me. So it is easy to dismiss minute fractions of a dB after this lesson. Likewise with distortion. There are any number of online sites that have demos and quizzes dealing with distortion, sampling rate/bit depth, various compression codecs, even basic hearing test.

People would be far better prepared IMO if they spent a small fraction of that time listening to audio gurus on these types of exercises. I suspect there would be some upheaval in the marketplace. And maybe we could chase the more scurrilous snake oil salespeople out the door and down the road to selling nutritional supplements or some other area where bilking people of hard earned money is accepted and encouraged.

 

[ban25]

For 2 channels source, I'm using both Spotify and last December I upgraded to Apple Music lossless (and spatial audio).

I compared the song 'Senorita by shawn mendez and camila cabello' in Apple Spatial Audio versus 2-channels Spotify and it was a night and day improvement.

The song with the most night and day difference is: Y Volvere by Lucero (female vocalist). In Spotify, there's a lot of crackling noises because Spotify can't capture the full wavelength, whereas there's no crackling in Apple Music and the notes are higher.

You're comparing just about the lowest quality lossy music source (Spotify) versus Apple Lossless (ALAC). Sorry, but it's simply a false comparison.

 

[funnychap]

You're comparing just about the lowest quality lossy music source (Spotify) versus Apple Lossless (ALAC). Sorry, but it's simply a false comparison.

I've also compared the same source Apple Music lossless on different DACs.

 

[funnychap]

Indeed. In my case, been there done that. Also learned along the way how to design and build loudspeakers--which is also when I learned how to listen. Only then did I properly appreciate how unreliable my ears were in detecting 0.5 dB difference. Even a whole dB is difficult in most cases for me. So it is easy to dismiss minute fractions of a dB after this lesson. Likewise with distortion. There are any number of online sites that have demos and quizzes dealing with distortion, sampling rate/bit depth, various compression codecs, even basic hearing test.

People would be far better prepared IMO if they spent a small fraction of that time listening to audio gurus on these types of exercises. I suspect there would be some upheaval in the marketplace. And maybe we could chase the more scurrilous snake oil salespeople out the door and down the road to selling nutritional supplements or some other area where bilking people of hard earned money is accepted and encouraged.

If there were no improvements in sound quality, assuming that the products all have the same features/properties, then why would anyone pay more?

 

[JRS]

If there were no improvements in sound quality, assuming that the products all have the same features/properties, then why would anyone pay more?

That's a very good question that we have sought to answer for some time. Except for the junk, most gear is sufficiently transparent until legitimate use cases of exotic speakers with in some cases stupefyingly demanding loads which will distress all but the most robust amps raise their heads
Much less common today than say 35/or 40 years ago. So there is a needs driven niche market for those. The rest is perception and window value.

You drop 20k on an amp it better be reliable (notoriously not! You cannot believe how many subjectively reviewed amps needed last minute tweak or replacement before review could be published; Or alternatively your audio dealer is willlng to come out late at night Friday for replacement).

In other words there if no consistent and rational basis for pricing once you get into the 3000 and above category.
Lord of reasons hypothesized,: pride of ownership/exclusivity, appearance and feel, expensive it must be good mentality, insecutity--if I buy the best I needn't worry about some other product bring better, and finally high end audio salespeople are good. In some cases very, very good especially if they appear glueng in engineering anc physics (most are NOT).

And of course that gets a lot of mention here is expectation bias. If you have ever handled z Krell Amp or Audio Control preamp, they simply exude quality--car guys call it fit and finish. You drop a 10k deposit on your cc, you huff and you puff getting it out of the car and into your "studio." You know this is gonna be special do you break out a 25 y.o. single malt scotch, your favorite records have been scrupulously cleaned, cartridge aligned, equipment warmed up...

You have no choice but to love the product and by the time to return it, you have not only rationalized buying the amp but putting the 1500 cables on reserve for next w/e while figuring out how yo tell your partner and what semiliquid assets you can raze.

It becomes z friggin addiction and to validate your purchasing smarts, you seek out other similarly afflicted individuals to reinforce your alacrity. For that shining moment you are an Audio God.

I mean I'm having some fun here obviously, but I know whereof I speak and it's not that far off.

 

[funnychap]

That's a very good question that we have sought to answer for some time. Except for the junk, most gear is sufficiently transparent until legitimate use cases of exotic speakers with in some cases stupefyingly demanding loads which will distress all but the most robust amps raise their heads
Much less common today than say 35/or 40 years ago. So there is a needs driven niche market for those. The rest is perception and window value.

You drop 20k on an amp it better be reliable (notoriously not! You cannot believe how many subjectively reviewed amps needed last minute tweak or replacement before review could be published; Or alternatively your audio dealer is willlng to come out late at night Friday for replacement).

In other words there if no consistent and rational basis for pricing once you get into the 3000 and above category.
Lord of reasons hypothesized,: pride of ownership/exclusivity, appearance and feel, expensive it must be good mentality, insecutity--if I buy the best I needn't worry about some other product bring better, and finally high end audio salespeople are good. In some cases very, very good especially if they appear glueng in engineering anc physics (most are NOT).

And of course that gets a lot of mention here is expectation bias. If you have ever handled z Krell Amp or Audio Control preamp, they simply exude quality--car guys call it fit and finish. You drop a 10k deposit on your cc, you huff and you puff getting it out of the car and into your "studio." You know this is gonna be special do you break out a 25 y.o. single malt scotch, your favorite records have been scrupulously cleaned, cartridge aligned, equipment warmed up...

You have no choice but to love the product and by the time to return it, you have not only rationalized buying the amp but putting the 1500 cables on reserve for next w/e while figuring out how yo tell your partner and what semiliquid assets you can raze.

It becomes z friggin addiction and to validate your purchasing smarts, you seek out other similarly afflicted individuals to reinforce your alacrity. For that shining moment you are an Audio God.

I mean I'm having some fun here obviously, but I know whereof I speak and it's not that far off.

No, you're comparing products that have different features/properties. Here's a real example of the same features properties:
A $1700 Denon X3800H has the same features/properties as an $3050 Arcam AVR11
(Arcam AVR11 even has less watts at 80 wpc whereas the Denon X3700H has 105 wpc, Arcam builtin amp only powers 7 channels whereas Denon powers 9 channels)

Again, why would anyone spend more $ for an Arcam AVR11?

NOTE: My Arcam AVR5 is $2k and has less wpc and 2 channels fewer of builtin amp than my Denon X3700H yet it sounds way way better.

 

[ban25]

NOTE: My Arcam AVR5 is $2k and has less wpc and 2 channels fewer of builtin amp than my Denon X3700H yet it sounds way way better.

In fact, you couldn't tell the difference between the two in a properly conducted, level-matched, blind test. This is a good read:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

 

[JRS]

No, you're comparing products that have different features/properties. Here's a real example of the same features properties:
A $1700 Denon X3800H has the same features/properties as an $3050 Arcam AVR11
(Arcam AVR11 even has less watts at 80 wpc whereas the Denon X3700H has 105 wpc, Arcam builtin amp only powers 7 channels whereas Denon powers 9 channels)

Again, why would anyone spend more $ for an Arcam AVR11?

NOTE: My Arcam AVR5 is $2k and has less wpc and 2 channels fewer of builtin amp than my Denon X3700H yet it sounds way way better.

No you are the one changing products. If you go back and look, my comments were specifically about amplifiers and nothing to do with AVR's--except inasmuch as the amp section on a 4800 is likely as good as the Arcam can be inferred from my comments. I know nothing of the two products. If I were looking I'd likely buy a pre-pro and find the important amplifiers for myself, to wit L,C, R Hypex NC502.

When it comes to ergonomics and features, we are in a whole different arena and I can understand the desire to get a different way of doing things then the high end Japanese AVR's which are befuddling at times and yet leave out very useful and seemingly intuitive options--in other words they seem to lack flexibility in some ways and I find them rarely intuitive and involving way too many menus--case in point Samsung's gorgeous new OLED powered by quantum dots. Takes six entries to get to the frigging source selection.
How do you make such a gaffe on a stunning SOTA flagship panel. Anyway, I digress.

 

[funnychap]

No you are the one changing products. If you go back and look, my comments were specifically about amplifiers and nothing to do with AVR's--except inasmuch as the amp section on a 4800 is likely as good as the Arcam can be inferred from my comments. I know nothing of the two products. If I were looking I'd likely buy a pre-pro and find the important amplifiers for myself, to wit L,C, R Hypex NC502.

When it comes to ergonomics and features, we are in a whole different arena and I can understand the desire to get a different way of doing things then the high end Japanese AVR's which are befuddling at times and yet leave out very useful and seemingly intuitive options--in other words they seem to lack flexibility in some ways and I find them rarely intuitive and involving way too many menus--case in point Samsung's gorgeous new OLED powered by quantum dots. Takes six entries to get to the frigging source selection.
How do you make such a gaffe on a stunning SOTA flagship panel. Anyway, I digress.

The thing with integrated versus components (pre-pro, dac, amp, etc.) is that the more components you add, the more the chances that you'll get a hum or buzz.

 

[peng]

Again, why would anyone spend more $ for an Arcam AVR11?

NOTE: My Arcam AVR5 is $2k and has less wpc and 2 channels fewer of builtin amp than my Denon X3700H yet it sounds way way better.

Talk about money less watts, I would like you to audition Denon's plain looking integrated amp PMA SX limited that is rated 50 w x2, listed for almost USD 8,000. It most likely will measure worse than your X3700H. I will never buy one even for 1/4 the price, but enough people must be buying, and I bet many will convince themselves the 50 W integrated amp sound much better than a 300 W buckeyeamp driven by a x3700h.

There are no simple answers to your question about why people would pay more for the Arcam. When it comes to this hobby, more expensive separate components don't sound better or different if specs and measurements indicate they don't, trust science and engineering, that's what got humans to the moon many years ago, not marketing experts, not people who only trust their eyes and ears.

 

[funnychap]

lol, when it comes to audio/visual entertainment, I trust my eyes and ears and I don't care about the science.

Even though my background is being a web developer/DBA/Sr. Data Engineer for 30 years for several fortune 100 companies. My science background is a B.S. from UCSD in Cognitive Science (Artificial Intelligence/Neuro Biology/Developmental Psychology). The only nonscience education I have is an MBA.

 

[JRS]

The thing with integrated versus components (pre-pro, dac, amp, etc.) is that the more components you add, the more the chances that you'll get a hum or buzz.

Yea, ground loops can be a pain, and occasionally seemingly intractable. But usually something works. The thing about having the front end SOTA Class D is you will have oodles of power for the front end of your HT which now won't be sucking off the power supply leaving more Joules for the remaining channels that are operational. I don't know that the fronts can be reallocated to other channels which seems like an obvious feature, but have my doubts. I'm living in cramped quarters for the foreseeable future, so am buying a nice LG G2 65 (tho I'm tempted to try Samsung for a change) and settling for a kick ass front with a couple of small rear speakers for ambience.

 

[peng]

lol, when it comes to audio/visual entertainment, I trust my eyes and ears and I don't care about the science.

Even though my background is being a web developer/DBA/Sr. Data Engineer for 30 years for several fortune 100 companies. My science background is a B.S. from UCSD in Cognitive Science (Artificial Intelligence/Neuro Biology/Developmental Psychology). The only nonscience education I have is an MBA.

The funny thing is, given your background, you most likely do care about science, at least in general. So you must be kidding around now.
Based on known science, people's eyes, ears, brains can be fooled, deceived... Measured results such as ASR's are repeatable, within tolerances, variance between samples etc., if done according to established protocols are no cheating involved. Also, audio performance/quality of av devices for this hobby, are based on science and engineering, and the designers/engineers typically designed/built those products for audio transparency, for amps that means amplifying and/or buffering the input signal without distorting it any shape or form, or minimize such distortions to levels considered well below the threshold of audibility. Unfortunately, even when such design goals are met or exceeded, by lab measurements, many people still insist on there things that measurements cannot show, so at the end of the days if's what their ears heard that rule. That sounds convincing on surface but is so obviously illogical. But then again, our world is full of people who are illogical, nothing wrong with that either, I suppose...

I acquired my last 5 or 6 AV receivers, preamp processors without listening to any of them prior because I trust specs (collaborated) and all available measurements that I could find during my research on them. If I were to rely on my ears/brains I would have to spend much more time that I didn't have and would have to visit many dealers and try convincing them to compare what they had for apples-apples comparison, and that's only if they happened to have those on my short list. In the end, those who trust their ears more so than specs and measurements can work best for them but if they make statement about their $3,000 boutique brand device that measured poorly related to a popular brand $2,000 Sony or Yamaha sound night and day better, then I would suggest such subjective comparisons be considered but potential buyers (who are all those who believe ears are much more important than specs and measurements) should do their own comparison listening to find out for themselves if their come to similar conclusions.

It has been fun, enjoy your future purchase visiting various places, so you can audition lots of gear so you can go with those that sounds great, to you, or you might have decided that Arcam, Anthem's will sound great to you, so just have to go their latest greatest for your next upgrade/update, that would be illogical to me, but may be to you.

Here's one fine blind test:

Blind Listening Test 2: Neumann KH 80 vs JBL 305p MkII vs Edifier R1280T vs RCF Arya Pro5

Shortly after completing the first blind listening test, @Inverse_Laplace and I started thinking about all the ways we’d like to improve the rigor and explore other questions. Written summary follows, but here is a video if you prefer that medium: Speakers (calculated preference score in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

and one for the golden ears (not saying you are at all but the first post seems good to read regardless), supposedly, >300 pages though seems like a very popular one:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[funnychap]

The funny thing is, given your background, you most likely do care about science, at least in general. So you must be kidding around now.
Based on known science, people's eyes, ears, brains can be fooled, deceived... Measured results such as ASR's are repeatable, within tolerances, variance between samples etc., if done according to established protocols are no cheating involved. Also, audio performance/quality of av devices for this hobby, are based on science and engineering, and the designers/engineers typically designed/built those products for audio transparency, for amps that means amplifying and/or buffering the input signal without distorting it any shape or form, or minimize such distortions to levels considered well below the threshold of audibility. Unfortunately, even when such design goals are met or exceeded, by lab measurements, many people still insist on there things that measurements cannot show, so at the end of the days if's what their ears heard that rule. That sounds convincing on surface but is so obviously illogical. But then again, our world is full of people who are illogical, nothing wrong with that either, I suppose...

I acquired my last 5 or 6 AV receivers, preamp processors without listening to any of them prior because I trust specs (collaborated) and all available measurements that I could find during my research on them. If I were to rely on my ears/brains I would have to spend much more time that I didn't have and would have to visit many dealers and try convincing them to compare what they had for apples-apples comparison, and that's only if they happened to have those on my short list. In the end, those who trust their ears more so than specs and measurements can work best for them but if they make statement about their $3,000 boutique brand device that measured poorly related to a popular brand $2,000 Sony or Yamaha sound night and day better, then I would suggest such subjective comparisons be considered but potential buyers (who are all those who believe ears are much more important than specs and measurements) should do their own comparison listening to find out for themselves if their come to similar conclusions.

It has been fun, enjoy your future purchase visiting various places, so you can audition lots of gear so you can go with those that sounds great, to you, or you might have decided that Arcam, Anthem's will sound great to you, so just have to go their latest greatest for your next upgrade/update, that would be illogical to me, but may be to you.

Here's one fine blind test:

Blind Listening Test 2: Neumann KH 80 vs JBL 305p MkII vs Edifier R1280T vs RCF Arya Pro5

Shortly after completing the first blind listening test, @Inverse_Laplace and I started thinking about all the ways we’d like to improve the rigor and explore other questions. Written summary follows, but here is a video if you prefer that medium: Speakers (calculated preference score in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

and one for the golden ears (not saying you are at all but the first post seems good to read regardless), supposedly, >300 pages though seems like a very popular one:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Science measurements do not mean that an amp going to sound good.
Example: One orange is heavier than another, more firm than another, bounce higher than another; does that mean that the heavier orange's inside is tastier, more colorful or juicier than the other? No.
And even if I peeled the orange and tasted it and liked it, doesn't mean that another person likes it as I may prefer a Blood Orange whereas they may prefer a tangerine flavor.

This is why I don't care about audio measurements. I have to experience it by peeling that orange and seeing it and tasting it. You can read a zillion articles and they're meaningless to me.

I'm a man of science but only when it makes sense to apply science.

 

[Ekkoville]

So being a complete novice of the science is one reasons I come here. I’ve learned a lot and realized that there’s a truth to these numbers and how it relates to attention to detail and clean engineering.

Having said that, not knowing how the Marantz Cinema 50 or the Arcam AVR31 measures on the bench, what makes the channel separation in the Arcam so significantly better in a seen from Life of Pi? The flying fish seen from that movie in a comparison between the two, not a DBT, revealed much more channel separation and detail from all parts of the room with the Arcam.

Question is, would that come out in measurements, or are there things at play that Amir does not measure that would sway me to the Arcam? I’m sure that there are and I ask the question because there must be something that isn’t generally measured that creates a better experience, aside from speakers and room treatments.

 

[JRS]

What romantic bullshit! After all of this you casually dismiss science as having no relevance to your audio experience. Then for the sake of integrity should go buy a victorola because the gap between your current playback system and that Victorola was bridged by solid engineering grounded in science. I'm frankly aghast at that last remark and find it so incongruent with your stated background, it leads me to believe that you're a bit of a dilettante, who sadly took away nothing from this dialog still smug in his assessment that amps are somehow like oranges each with complex flavors that cannot possibly be measured or characterized in any fashion by any instrument known to man but ears. BS.

 

[pseudoid]

...somehow like oranges each with complex flavors...

Your rebuttal would have been 100% bullet-proof rebuttal, only if you had used coffee instead...
But 99.5% still is great!

 

[JRS]

I prefer to just enjoy the best sounding music to my ears without caring about the measurements.

Which is fine, no one contests that. What I found disingenuous and perhaps even bordering on trolling was engaging members with the appearance of an open mind, offered a number of testimonials and even provided links to well conducted experiments showing the fallacy of believing that amps sound different enough to consistently identify. This has been performed any number of times spanning decades almost invariably with null results, indicating that whatever perceived differences seemed to vanish under testing conditions. Then you trot out scientific credentials, yet are not enough of a scientist to have an open mind, read the studies, poke holes in them where present, and ask for clarification or links to other studies if you remain unconvinced of their validity. Instead you just seem to wave off the entire discussion with I know there are differences and what I like. Seems like a lot of time was wasted for what seems to have been a foregone conclusion hence my comparison to trolling. Good luck to you--the important thing is the power and beauty of the music and its ability to replenish the soul--on that much I am sure we can all agree.