New here looking for help: Deciding between Marantz vs Denon vs. arcam avr20

[Drsteve]

I’m new here and just rebuilding my home theater system.

Just purchased 3 KEF in wall ci5160RL for front stage and 6 in ceiling KEF ci200rr 8 inch.

It seems that Arcam was the winner for sound so I bought the AVR20 and just realized it can only power 7 speakers.

Looking at the Marantz SR8015 as a replacement since it can power everything. Not sure if I want to bite the bullet and spent another 3k on an arcam 2 channel amp to add on.

Denon seems like it would be a downgrade

Would love to hear your suggestions.

 

[techsamurai]

I was surprised the AVR20 only powers 7 speakers. The AVR20 is pretty powerful.

I'm sure you could have a one AVR solution like the SR8015 but doesn't the Arcam have full Dirac?

Those KEFs seem to be 4 ohms and they have strange power requirements ranging from 10-190 watts and 40-250 watts. Which one is it? 10 or 190?

If you're considering buying an external amp and your budget can accommodate it, you could power the LCR and get 3 channels at 200-300 watts or 5 and bi-amp the LR cause why not, right? If you can find a 6 channel amp, you could bi-amp the entire LCR.

Clearly you're setting up a really nice home theater - the speakers that you've chosen are not cheap by any means and amps have never been cheaper. I'd say turn the front stage speakers loose and give them the best power possible.

 

[Drsteve]

I was surprised the AVR20 only powers 7 speakers. The AVR20 is pretty powerful.

I'm sure you could have a one AVR solution like the SR8015 but doesn't the Arcam have full Dirac?

Those KEFs seem to be 4 ohms and they have strange power requirements ranging from 10-190 watts and 40-250 watts. Which one is it? 10 or 190?

If you're considering buying an external amp and your budget can accommodate it, you could power the LCR and get 3 channels at 200-300 watts or 5 and bi-amp the LR cause why not, right? If you can find a 6 channel amp, you could bi-amp the entire LCR.

Clearly you're setting up a really nice home theater - the speakers that you've chosen are not cheap by any means and amps have never been cheaper. I'd say turn the front stage speakers loose and give them the best power possible.

The avr20 can output 16 channels but can only power 7. I was surprised too. Need to return arcam or keep it and fork out the money for a 2 channel arcam amp.

The avr20 has DIRAC. is it a big deal

 

[Drsteve]

The avr20 can output 16 channels but can only power 7. I was surprised too. Need to return arcam or keep it and fork out the money for a 2 channel arcam amp.

The avr20 has DIRAC. is it a big deal I don’t see an arcam 3 channel amp available

 

[techsamurai]

The avr20 can output 16 channels but can only power 7. I was surprised too. Need to return arcam or keep it and fork out the money for a 2 channel arcam amp.

The avr20 has DIRAC. is it a big deal

DIRAC is room correction and is considered the best kind right now so it's a good thing. If you switch to the SR8015 you'd have to use their versiono of room correction which is named Audyssey and is pretty good but not as good as Dirac at least without manually modifying the curve.

You could get a 2 channel Arcam amp and power the Left and Right channels but if you go through the trouble of buying an external amp, why not go for one that allows you to bi-amp? Do you know what I mean by bi-amp?

 

[Drsteve]

DIRAC is room correction and is considered the best kind right now so it's a good thing. If you switch to the SR8015 you'd have to use their versiono of room correction which is named Audyssey and is pretty good but not as good as Dirac at least without manually modifying the curve.

You could get a 2 channel Arcam amp and power the Left and Right channels but if you go through the trouble of buying an external amp, why not go for one that allows you to bi-amp? Do you know what I mean by bi-amp?

I’m not familiar with the benefits of Bi-amp.

The reason for the arcam recover was because of the reviews of the amp, if I go with another amp, I’m wondering if I am wasting money on the avr20. Arcam only makes a 2 channel amp with 770 watts which is more than I need.

Trying to figure the best cost effective combination with keeping my budget under $6k.

 

[techsamurai]

I’m not familiar with the benefits of Bi-amp.

The reason for the arcam recover was because of the reviews of the amp, if I go with another amp, I’m wondering if I am wasting money on the avr20. Arcam only makes a 2 channel amp with 770 watts which is more than I need.

Trying to figure the best cost effective combination with keeping my budget under $6k.

When you say your budget is 6k (which is very high btw), what is that for? The external amp or the AVR + external amp?

Here's a quick explanation of bi-amping:

If you look at your speakers, you'll notice they have 2 sets of binding posts connected together and usually labeled HFE and LFE. That stands for high frequencies and low frequencies. Usually, you connect using a single speaker cable to one set on the binding posts and the interconnection carries the signal to the other one binding post.

Bi-amp is essentially feeding 2 separate signals to each set. One for LFE and one for HFE- it separates the signals.

High-end AVRs like your Arcam allow you to usually bi-amp at least the left and right and when you do that you lose 2 speakers (15 drops to 13) and 2 channel amps if you use the AVR to power them. I have 5 speakers and an AVR that powers 7 channels - I don't have an external amp. So in my case, I use my AVR to bi-amp my front Left and Right (my most expensive speakers) and use all 7 channels on the AVR even though I have 5 speakers.

The AVR has a setting to bi-amp and tells you where to connect the extra cable to. You just need to run the 2 identical length cables to the speaker and disconnect the bridge. It's fairly simple to do. If I could do it, anyone can.

Why would you want to do that? Here's an article explaining why from KEF. The better (aka more expensive) the speakers, the better the power and electronics and separation you want.

Bi-Amp'ing Basics Article By Jack Sharkey KEF Direct

Bi-Amp'ing Basics Article By Jack Sharkey KEF Direct

www.enjoythemusic.com

Bi-amping will not make a world of difference but if you want to get the most out of your speakers you might as well do it. In the old days, it was prohibitively expensive to do as amps were expensive and only supported 5 or 7 channels.

Here's a video where a famous audio reviewer tried bi-amping:

If you need an external amp, you have a lot of choices. People here can advise you better than I can in that aspect as I don't own an external amp. Here are examples of external amps that have a lot of power:

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

XPA-6 Gen3 6 Channel Audiophile Home Theater Power Amplifier

The new XPA-6 is a six-channel audiophile quality power amplifier, and is perfect for powering your surround speakers, height speakers, any other effects channels in your Dolby Atmos / DTS:X home theater system.

emotiva.com

The first thing you need to decide is whether you want to change the AVR or add an external amp. Personally, I would keep your AVR (you chose it for a reason) and add an external amp which is common nowadays.

If you decide to get an external amp, you have to decide what you will power with the external amp. Here are the options:

1. Power the LR channel (2 channel amp)
2. Power the LCR (3 channel amp)
3. Bi-amp LR (5 channel amp as 4 channel amps don't exist)
4. Bi-amp LCR (6 channel amp or higher)

If you had cheap speakers, I'd say 1 or 2. But your LCR is $9k and that's considered very high-end and looks and sounds amazing I'm sure. You will not save much going with a 3 ch external amp over a 8ch amp and it opens the door to other options. Given the price of your system, I'd do 3 and 4 (if the AVR allows 3 channels to be bi-amped) because clarity and separation will matter and throwing everything over 1 signal is inferior to using 2 signals.

Hope that helps and I really hope someone more knowledgeable and familiar with Arcam's speaker configuration and external amps can guide you.

 

[funnychap]

I’m new here and just rebuilding my home theater system.

Just purchased 3 KEF in wall ci5160RL for front stage and 6 in ceiling KEF ci200rr 8 inch.

It seems that Arcam was the winner for sound so I bought the AVR20 and just realized it can only power 7 speakers.

Looking at the Marantz SR8015 as a replacement since it can power everything. Not sure if I want to bite the bullet and spent another 3k on an arcam 2 channel amp to add on.

Denon seems like it would be a downgrade

Would love to hear your suggestions.

I've been in the hobby since 2000. I have the Arcam AVR5 in a 7.2.4 setup with my 150in screen and even the Arcam by itself sounds way way better than my Denon X3700H in a 5.2.4 setup even with 100% external amps.

Guest bedroom/theater with 150in screen in a 7.2.4 setup:
Arcam AVR5 powers LCR
Emotiva BasX-A3 powers surround L and R (BasX does not have good dynamic range so I relegate it to the surrounds)
3 old Denon 1912 receivers power the rear surrounds and 4 atmos speakers
2 subwoofers: Definitive Technology Supercube 6000 and 2000

Family room in a 5.2.4 setup:
Denon X3700H powers the center channel, surround L and R, 4 atmos
Parasound Zonemaster 2 powers the L and R (and makes 2-channels music way better than Denon or Emotiva BasX-A3).
2 subwoofers: Definitive Technology Supercube 6000 and 2000

 

[JRS]

The avr20 can output 16 channels but can only power 7. I was surprised too. Need to return arcam or keep it and fork out the money for a 2 channel arcam amp.

The avr20 has DIRAC. is it a big deal

No reason the amp has to be an Arcam. In fact, I believe they are exorbitantly overpriced. Instead I'd look for one of the many Class D options, including the Buckeye amps that can be configured according to need--i.e. mix and match power available to different channels. Cost a lot less, and are twice as efficient. And inexpensive has NOTHING to do with quality, these amps are essentially state of the art.

 

[peng]

Parasound Zonemaster 2 powers the L and R (and makes 2-channels music way better than Denon or Emotiva BasX-A3).

I have to say there must be something funny going on in your 2-channel music listening comparison as my Denon(s) (including a X3400H) internal amps sounded as good as my Parasound Halo A21, just much less powerful. Can't imagine the Zonemaster 2 can do better, so I thinking something else might be at play...

 

[funnychap]

I have to say there must be something funny going on in your 2-channel music listening comparison as my Denon(s) (including a X3400H) internal amps sounded as good as my Parasound Halo A21, just much less powerful. Can't imagine the Zonemaster 2 can do better, so I thinking something else might be at play...

For 2 channels source, I'm using both Spotify and last December I upgraded to Apple Music lossless (and spatial audio).

I compared the song 'Senorita by shawn mendez and camila cabello' in Apple Spatial Audio versus 2-channels Spotify and it was a night and day improvement.

The song with the most night and day difference is: Y Volvere by Lucero (female vocalist). In Spotify, there's a lot of crackling noises because Spotify can't capture the full wavelength, whereas there's no crackling in Apple Music and the notes are higher.

 

[funnychap]

I have to say there must be something funny going on in your 2-channel music listening comparison as my Denon(s) (including a X3400H) internal amps sounded as good as my Parasound Halo A21, just much less powerful. Can't imagine the Zonemaster 2 can do better, so I thinking something else might be at play...

I think that you don't notice a difference even with the better Parasound Halo 21 amp versus your Denon X3400H is because you're still limited by the Denon's dac. A better dac would maximize your Parasound Halo 21.

 

[funnychap]

No reason the amp has to be an Arcam. In fact, I believe they are exorbitantly overpriced. Instead I'd look for one of the many Class D options, including the Buckeye amps that can be configured according to need--i.e. mix and match power available to different channels. Cost a lot less, and are twice as efficient. And inexpensive has NOTHING to do with quality, these amps are essentially state of the art.

I've just visited the Buckeye website and I see that their Class D amp for 2 channels has a lot of power at 380 watts @ 8 Ohm.
I love my Parasound Zonemaster 2 (Class D, 120 wpc @ 8 Ohm) and sounds as awesome as my Arcam AVR5 receiver.
QUESTION: How does the Buckeye sound compared to Parasound? Parasound is used by major studios and the Parasound sound is in all their products.
I don't need a lot of power because I listen to music and movies below 80-85 decibels.
On a Macintosh amp's VU meter, I see that movies don't use more than 25 watts, so clarity of female vocalists and dynamic range are more important to me.

 

[funnychap]

No reason the amp has to be an Arcam. In fact, I believe they are exorbitantly overpriced. Instead I'd look for one of the many Class D options, including the Buckeye amps that can be configured according to need--i.e. mix and match power available to different channels. Cost a lot less, and are twice as efficient. And inexpensive has NOTHING to do with quality, these amps are essentially state of the art.

The Arcam PA240 sounds as awesome as my Arcam AVR5. I think you need to use your ears and not specs.

Example: People say that Class D amps sound bad but my Parasound Zonemaster 2 (class D) sounds awesome as my Arcam AVR5.
People said that the Emotiva BasX-A3 is great for the LCR speakers so I bought one but I found that it lacked dynamic range so I relegated it to powering my surround L and R.

Trust your ears, not youtubers who are making $ off their videos.

 

[peng]

I think that you don't notice a difference even with the better Parasound Halo 21 amp versus your Denon X3400H is because you're still limited by the Denon's dac. A better dac would maximize your Parasound Halo 21.

No, it is not because of the internal DAC, it is something so obvious that if I wanted to compare "power amps", I would take the dac out of the equation.

I used external DACs (have quite a few) that use the likes of the ES9038Pro, also used a separate Cambridge Audio preamp, as well as a Marantz preamp, never used the Denon's DAC. The Denon was put in direct mode, analog input. If I had used digital inputs, there might have been a slight difference. My purpose was just to find out how good the Denon was when used as a) preamp/DAC, and b) as preamp, to drive an external power amp, versus using my separate pairs. It turns out in both cases, they sounded virtually the same, level matched but sighted. So I did do another comparison that involved the Denon's DAC. I was a little surprised too as I always thought the A21 especially at the spl, it would have been running in class A, would sound at least distinguishable. So instead of trusting my ears/brains, I pulled out the Umik-1 and took some measurements. The results below show there was hardly any difference in frequency response in all 3 configurations. That's just FR, and it was tested with the AVR-3805, also measured anything that REW could show, found no apparent reason why they would sound audibly different. I also took measurements with the X3400H, and a NAD integrated amp, but could not find the graphs, yet. Same kind of results anyway. So I know it wasn't just my ears, the mic heard the same...

 

[funnychap]

No, it is not because of the internal DAC, it is something so obvious that if I wanted to compare "power amps", I would take the dac out of the equation.

I used external DACs (have quite a few) that use the likes of the ES9038Pro, also used a separate Cambridge Audio preamp, as well as a Marantz preamp, never used the Denon's DAC. The Denon was put in direct mode, analog input. If I had used digital inputs, there might have been a slight difference. My purpose was just to find out how good the Denon was when used as a) preamp/DAC, and b) as preamp, to drive an external power amp, versus using my separate pairs. It turns out in both cases, they sounded virtually the same, level matched but sighted. So I did do another comparison that involved the Denon's DAC. I was a little surprised too as I always thought the A21 especially at the spl, it would have been running in class A, would sound at least distinguishable. So instead of trusting my ears/brains, I pulled out the Umik-1 and took some measurements. The results below show there was hardly any difference in frequency response in all 3 configurations. That's just FR, and it was tested with the AVR-3805, also measured anything that REW could show, found no apparent reason why they would sound audibly different. I also took measurements with the X3400H, and a NAD integrated amp, but could not find the graphs, yet. Same kind of results anyway. So I know it wasn't just my ears, the mic heard the same...


View attachment 275160

Thanks for clarifying that the Denon's dac was not used, and the chart.
But just because measurements don't capture it doesn't mean that there isn't a perceivable difference.... just like when autopsies are performed if coroners aren't testing for a certain thing doesn't mean that the patient didn't die from something that they didn't test.

 

[peng]

Trust your ears, not youtubers who are making $ off their videos.

I agree people need to trust their ears, just need to point out they (Ears) cannot always be trusted. If one always trust their ears (not saying if you are in that group, because I don't know that), there is no point to go back and forth, as such forum debates/arguments have been going on for probably many years, it seems like a sort of forever debate. It doesn't matter how many graphs and measure data show, objectivists could not convince the subjectivists who trust their ears. No one can prove what others hear so anyone can say they heard whatever, unless we can put enough people in a room to do those so call DBT comparison listening, there will be no conclusions.

Harman did do such DBT long time ago, but it was on speakers and in their studies, it concluded that if one knows which one (being compared) is playing, it doesn't matter what one thinks, the results are not reliable, in other words you can't trust your ears unless you don't know which device is playing.

 

[peng]

Thanks for clarifying that the Denon's dac was not used, and the chart.
But just because measurements don't capture it doesn't mean that there isn't a perceivable difference.... just like when autopsies are performed if coroners aren't testing for a certain thing doesn't mean that the patient didn't die from something that they didn't test.

True, so I can believe audible/or perceivable differences could be there between amps. Only DBT can prove whether such differences are significant enough for you to identify the devices 6 times out of 10 consistently (just an example). So we can stop right now unless we can be in the same room doing some DBT listening using the devices. mentioned. I, and another person have recently AB compared my A21 with my buckeye amp (class D), also a Bryston 4B SST amp though I wasn't in on that one), and could not pass the DBT test. One might have to do it just to be convinced, the eyes/brains can hear things that the ears/brains could not hear. That appear to be the case in Harman's DBT tests on speakers, because they found in one case, a satellite speaker system (with sub) scored higher than a pair of full range that costs much more but the expensive full range pairs scored much better when the tests was done sighted.

Do you think manufacturers design their amps (just an example, could be dac etc.) based on their designer's ears as well? I only know Marantz and Denon claimed they use their "soundmaster" who apparently have to approve the design. I also read that Peter Walker (who designed the Quad amps) never do listening test until the end and only listened to make sure their wasn't any obvious issues.

Peter walker ( Quad)

We designed our valve amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, 'Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it.' However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[funnychap]

True, so I can believe audible/or perceivable differences could be there between amps. Only DBT can prove whether such differences are significant enough for you to identify the devices 6 times out of 10 consistently (just an example). So we can stop right now unless we can be in the same room doing some DBT listening using the devices. mentioned. I, and another person have recently AB compared my A21 with my buckeye amp (class D), also a Bryston 4B SST amp though I wasn't in on that one), and could not pass the DBT test. One might have to do it just to be convinced, the eyes/brains can hear things that the ears/brains could not hear. That appear to be the case in Harman's DBT tests on speakers, because they found in one case, a satellite speaker system (with sub) scored higher than a pair of full range that costs much more but the expensive full range pairs scored much better when the tests was done sighted.

Do you think manufacturers design their amps (just an example, could be dac etc.) based on their designer's ears as well? I only know Marantz and Denon claimed they use their "soundmaster" who apparently have to approve the design. I also read that Peter Walker (who designed the Quad amps) never do listening test until the end and only listened to make sure their wasn't any obvious issues.

Peter walker ( Quad)

We designed our valve amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, 'Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it.' However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

How does the Parasound A21 sound compared to the Buckeye amp for 2-channels music?

 

[peng]

How does the Parasound A21 sound compared to the Buckeye amp for 2-channels music?

As I said, we could not tell which was which in our DBT, using external DAC that has SINAD >110 dB, the Buckeye amp sounds totally transparent to us.
In one case, we bought two selector switches for quick AB switching between the DUTs:

Comparing Buckeye and VTV Purifi Amps

Hello. I am wondering if anyone has had an opportunity to make a direct, head-to-head comparison of the Purifi-based stereo (i.e., 2-channel) amplifier offerings from Buckeye and VTV. I have read glowing reviews of both amps, and the Buckeye is priced similarly to Purifi's base model (without an...

www.audiosciencereview.com