New here, looking for advice for first setup, budget $2000~

[Tanax]

Hi!

New to the forum. I've been lurking around for a while before creating an account so I'm not completely new here but still
I'm looking for advice on getting my first setup.

My budget is around equivalent of $1200 for headphones and around $800 on amp and dac. If this balance is incorrect, please let me know!

I mainly listen to three genres, Trance (lots of female vocal), Kpop (again lots of very high female vocal) and progressive metal (stuff like Dream Theater and similar which on the flip side can be lots of dark vocals and growls).

After reading and searching a bit, I think the Audeze LCD-2F could be a really good match for me.
Obviously I'd have to go test them myself but basically I'm looking for advice on if you agree that LCDs could be a good match for me? And also what other headphones might be worth testing that maybe I haven't thought of that could be a good match for me, given what I listen to?

Regarding head amp and DAC, I've read that the Massdrop (now called only Drop) THX is supposed to be very good - but that isn't available right now. So I'm now instead looking at JDS Labs EL stack which should have enough power to drive the LCDs, be very neutral and look good - yes, I'm a bit shameful admitting that looks also matter somewhat It's still fairly expensive to get them to Sweden - so if you have other suggestions, I'm all ears!

I'm thinking that a neutral amp and DAC could be good when starting out so that I can get a reference point and then get other amps and DACs as I find out what types of sounds I want to accentuate.

Thank you in advance

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm thinking that a neutral amp and DAC could be good when starting out so that I can get a reference point and then get other amps and DACs as I find out what types of sounds I want to accentuate.

I don't think I would swap Amps and DACs to "find out what types of sounds I want to accentuate".

PS: Welcome to the forum.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I would reduce your DAC/amp budget to $200-300, since any technical gains beyond competent products at that price point are not likely to give audible improvements. Or to put it another way, if you want to start out with neutral electronics free of audible noise and distortion, you don't need to spend more.

That would leave you with a looooot of money to spend on headphones.

 

[Agile_Interest]

JDS Labs Atom ($100), has plenty of power and very clean don't need anything else really unless you can get your hands on a 789. For DAC I would go with the SMSL SU-8 ($250). For headphones I would go with Massdrop 6XX, Modhouse Argons (order them balanced, protein pads), Sendy Aiva, LCD2C.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Stax ESL (Read expensive) is my reference headphones... HifiMan HE560 is my everyday, 90% of the time, cans, Sony WH-1000X Noise Cancelling when I travel, this one is Bluetooth with its own DAC and Amp ....
I would suggest to allocate $600 to try ...
Khadas Tone Board ($100)+ JDS Lab Atom ($100)+ HiFiman HE560 (<$400) ... You may be left with $1400 ... to splurge on whatever you care for ... If you don't like you return ...

 

[Tanax]

I don't think I would swap Amps and DACs to "find out what types of sounds I want to accentuate".

PS: Welcome to the forum.

No no, *as* I find out what I want to accentuate, not *to* find out
Thank you!

I would reduce your DAC/amp budget to $200-300, since any technical gains beyond competent products at that price point are not likely to give audible improvements. Or to put it another way, if you want to start out with neutral electronics free of audible noise and distortion, you don't need to spend more.

That would leave you with a looooot of money to spend on headphones.

Oh wow, really? The problem though is that if I would go with the LCD-2F, they like a lot of power and lower end amps don't really have enough oumph, or maybe I'm mistaken? But I don't mind reducing my amp/DAC budget and get even better headphones instead What would be a good amp/DAC for the LCD-2F and would you still recommend those headphones based on what I listen to?

JDS Labs Atom ($100), has plenty of power and very clean don't need anything else really unless you can get your hands on a 789. For DAC I would go with the SMSL SU-8 ($250). For headphones I would go with Massdrop 6XX, Modhouse Argons (order them balanced, protein pads), Sendy Aiva, LCD2C.

Cool! The Atom also has pre-outs which would allow me to connect to my desktop speakers as well Never heard of SMSL, will check it out! Massdrop is a bit difficult to order to Sweden but I'll check it out! What are the sound signatures of the headphones you listed, what are the differences between them? Also, would you recommend the LCD-2C over the LCD-2F? I was under the impression that the 2F handles high vocals (high treble) better and clearer than the 2C?

Hi

Stax ESL (Read expensive) is my reference headphones... HifiMan HE560 is my everyday, 90% of the time, cans, Sony WH-1000X Noise Cancelling when I travel, this one is Bluetooth with its own DAC and Amp ....
I would suggest to allocate $600 to try ...
Khadas Tone Board ($100)+ JDS Lab Atom ($100)+ HiFiman HE560 (<$400) ... You may be left with $1400 ... to splurge on whatever you care for ... If you don't like you return ...

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check them out! I've never heard of Khadas before! I've heard really good things about Stax but man do they look funny

 

[andreasmaaan]

Oh wow, really? The problem though is that if I would go with the LCD-2F, they like a lot of power and lower end amps don't really have enough oumph, or maybe I'm mistaken? But I don't mind reducing my amp/DAC budget and get even better headphones instead What would be a good amp/DAC for the LCD-2F and would you still recommend those headphones based on what I listen to?

The Atom that others has recommended is about as good as it gets and powerful enough. I know less about headphones in that price range, and in any case the choice is more personal as different headphones interact with different heads differently, meaning it is important to listen yourself first. So having the ability to EQ the signal going into the headphones (e.g. through software) is likely to be an advantage.

 

[daftcombo]

Why not get a RME ADI-2 DAC ?
It has a splendid DAC (which you could use with speakers in the future) and a splendid headphones amp. Plus german quality!
It also has a parametric EQ inside, with 5 bands that you could use to correct your headphones (no phones are perfect).

You would still have 900$ left for a great pair of headphones.

 

[bunkbail]

I mainly listen to three genres, Trance (lots of female vocal), Kpop (again lots of very high female vocal) and progressive metal (stuff like Dream Theater and similar which on the flip side can be lots of dark vocals and growls).

Wow, your taste almost exactly like mine except that I also listen to a lot of alternative rocks too. Most of the songs in these genres (especially Kpop) hardly have good mastering where technical qualities are a priority. I blame the loudness war here. If I were you I'd take headphones with fun sound signature like the Klipsch HP-3 with it's matching Heritage DAC/amplifier (they both look so awesome in person!), as opposed to the more analytic headphones like the Sennheiser HD800s.

 

[Tanax]

The Atom that others has recommended is about as good as it gets and powerful enough. I know less about headphones in that price range, and in any case the choice is more personal as different headphones interact with different heads differently, meaning it is important to listen yourself first. So having the ability to EQ the signal going into the headphones (e.g. through software) is likely to be an advantage.

Good to know! I hadn't even thought about EQ. Is software as good as hardware EQ?

Why not get a RME ADI-2 DAC ?
It has a splendid DAC (which you could use with speakers in the future) and a splendid headphones amp. Plus german quality!
It also has a parametric EQ inside, with 5 bands that you could use to correct your headphones (no phones are perfect).

You would still have 900$ left for a great pair of headphones.

Looks like a nice amp/DAC combo! Quite expensive though. Would you say that the amp/DAC is better to spend the majority of the budget on rather than spending the majority on the actual headphones?

Any suggestions for headphones in that price range?

Wow, your taste almost exactly like mine except that I also listen to a lot of alternative rocks too. Most of the songs in these genres (especially Kpop) hardly have good mastering where technical qualities are a priority. I blame the loudness war here. If I were you I'd take headphones with fun sound signature like the Klipsch HP-3 with it's matching Heritage DAC/amplifier (they both look so awesome in person!), as opposed to the more analytic headphones like the Sennheiser HD800s.

Cool! Seems like Kpop is on the rise.. hehe!
Yes, I'm familiar with the bad mastering - although it has become a lot better in recent years! Klipsch HP-3 looks amazing! According to reviews, it has a punchy bass, somewhat scooped mids and "sparkly" treble. Won't the sparkly treble be troublesome with high female vocals in Kpop?

Unfortunately, I checked all stores in Sweden (at least the ones that are listed online) and NONE of them has the HP-3 for demo So I'm left with a choice of taking a chance on it. Of course, I'm always entitled to return them within 14 days (Swedish online-purchase law) without cost. But still

Would you still recommend the HP-3 over the LCD-2F?

The matching Heritage amp/DAC also looks amazing and has extremely good reviews.




Appreciate all the suggestions so far, guys!

 

[daftcombo]

Any suggestions for headphones in that price range?

I don't know. I'm happy with Magnat LZR 980, around 120$ in Europe. Can't recommend anything more expensive.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Good to know! I hadn't even thought about EQ. Is software as good as hardware EQ?

Absolutely. Indeed hardware (digital) EQ is really software EQ, it’s just the software is on a microprocessor inside a separate unit.

 

[Mr. Olinad]

Nothing better than a pocket full of money
For DAC/Amp I recommend you to start with a JDS Labs Atom + Topping D50 so you will still have a lot of money to try some cans.
If you ask me about how they stack...

(or google it)

Headphone is something very critical and only after trying some you'll be able to decide which is better for you.
I recommend an used HE500 for Metal (I'm also a Dream Theater fan - Portnoy's era only) for you to have experience with planar magnetic drivers.
A pair of HD600 will be a good starting point for a dynamic driver and a good HP if at some point you decide to try a valve amp.
Anyway, my prefered HP is the Focal Clear but I still have not enough money to have it, but this is not your case, so...
The only thing I wouldn't start with is with an LCD... I think they are too dark and because of it they are good as alternative, but not as the main HP.

 

[bunkbail]

Klipsch HP-3 looks amazing! According to reviews, it has a punchy bass, somewhat scooped mids and "sparkly" treble. Won't the sparkly treble be troublesome with high female vocals in Kpop?

Not at all! I am sensitive to treble yet I had no issues with vocals on the HP-3 at all the last time I tried it. Growls always sound so satisfying and it always sends shivers to my spine every time I listened to metal.

Of course, I'm always entitled to return them within 14 days (Swedish online-purchase law) without cost. But still
Would you still recommend the HP-3 over the LCD-2F?

Depends on what kind of sound signature you're looking for. LCD-2F is too dark for my liking and the HP-3 is more balanced overall. It's always better to try first instead of buying them blindly and 14-day return policy sounds great for that!

 

[Tks]

One thing, I would avoid LCD's in totality, not because of sound quality (anyone downplaying them is being preposterous, especially with something like EQ from a pretty known Reddit user /r/Oratory1990 and his Harman Target EQ values).

The problem with all LCD's is their weight. And no, not in the way some have described about "neck pain" from the weight, it has more to do with mobility.

Second, and I think is a death flaw of these (without slight modding) is the metal headband that is over the pleather piece. The pleather will eventually stretch, to a point where the metal will dig into your head. Now you might be wondering "what do you mean dig in, they will simply just fall on top of the head, not too big of a deal". No, the way the designer clowns at Audeze approached this line of headphones is aesthetic over function at all costs. The way it sits on your head isn't even, the front headband mental sits closer and more downward+forward leaning into your head from the edge of the headband.

I modded mine by moving the strap lower so the metal could never touch my head, and the comfort was insanely good. There was only one problem that took me time to realize after my euphoric few weeks.. The comfort was worse. Not because of weight, nor pain this time, but because mobility was even more hampered. The issue was, it lifted the headphone's center of gravity higher, and made them feel more on a pivot (your head being the pivot). While nowhere near as bad as the pain from the metal headband touching your head, it was still nonetheless more annoying the moment I tried the HD6XX. I could not believe how light and easy going those headphones were.

So for sound quality LCD's are great. But using them is next to impossible for me, and I would wager for many people given enough time due to this -quite frankly- idiotic design choice.

 

[Ron Texas]

I love my HD 6XX. There are some nice DAC/Head Amp combos which have been tested here. The Topping DX3 Pro comes to mind. A single box is neater. I use a Grace Design M9xx with my cans. It's pretty, but pricey.

 

[Tanax]

I don't know. I'm happy with Magnat LZR 980, around 120$ in Europe. Can't recommend anything more expensive.

Thank you for the suggestion, will check them out if they are available for testing around where I'm located!

Absolutely. Indeed hardware (digital) EQ is really software EQ, it’s just the software is on a microprocessor inside a separate unit.

Cool! This might be another topic but what are some good software EQs that you can recommend (for Mac mainly but would be great if it works for Windows as well)? And will they only work with a specific program (iTunes, Spotify, etc) or is the EQ applied to ALL output?

Nothing better than a pocket full of money
For DAC/Amp I recommend you to start with a JDS Labs Atom + Topping D50 so you will still have a lot of money to try some cans.
If you ask me about how they stack...
View attachment 25859 (or google it)

Headphone is something very critical and only after trying some you'll be able to decide which is better for you.
I recommend an used HE500 for Metal (I'm also a Dream Theater fan - Portnoy's era only) for you to have experience with planar magnetic drivers.
A pair of HD600 will be a good starting point for a dynamic driver and a good HP if at some point you decide to try a valve amp.
Anyway, my prefered HP is the Focal Clear but I still have not enough money to have it, but this is not your case, so...
The only thing I wouldn't start with is with an LCD... I think they are too dark and because of it they are good as alternative, but not as the main HP.

I've seen many good things about the Atom! Unfortunately the Topping is completely sold out and also quite difficult to get a hold of in Sweden. We are, sad to say, not very prioritized by Topping, Massdrop and others, even JDS Labs but they at least have the choice on their website to get a EU adapter.

I think the Focal Clear is available for me to try out, which would be amazing. Would they be a good match for Kpop and Trance also? Will see if the HE500 is available to listen to as well!

Regarding the LCD, I thought the darkness in them would kind of balance them out in regards to high treble in many Kpop female songs, making it a more relaxed listening experience. But this might not be what you have found out?

Not at all! I am sensitive to treble yet I had no issues with vocals on the HP-3 at all the last time I tried it. Growls always sound so satisfying and it always sends shivers to my spine every time I listened to metal.


Depends on what kind of sound signature you're looking for. LCD-2F is too dark for my liking and the HP-3 is more balanced overall. It's always better to try first instead of buying them blindly and 14-day return policy sounds great for that!

Good to hear it's good for vocals, both in the midrange for metal as well as high treble vocals like in Kpop!
I'm really interested in how dark the LCD-2F sounds but it's very difficult when no one around me has them for demoing. The 14-day return policy is great, but it's also a hassle to order things blindly and then have to send stuff back and issue refunds, etc So I usually only use it for when I'm actually disappointed with the product, rather than for demo purposes.

One thing, I would avoid LCD's in totality, not because of sound quality (anyone downplaying them is being preposterous, especially with something like EQ from a pretty known Reddit user /r/Oratory1990 and his Harman Target EQ values).

The problem with all LCD's is their weight. And no, not in the way some have described about "neck pain" from the weight, it has more to do with mobility.

Second, and I think is a death flaw of these (without slight modding) is the metal headband that is over the pleather piece. The pleather will eventually stretch, to a point where the metal will dig into your head. Now you might be wondering "what do you mean dig in, they will simply just fall on top of the head, not too big of a deal". No, the way the designer clowns at Audeze approached this line of headphones is aesthetic over function at all costs. The way it sits on your head isn't even, the front headband mental sits closer and more downward+forward leaning into your head from the edge of the headband.

I modded mine by moving the strap lower so the metal could never touch my head, and the comfort was insanely good. There was only one problem that took me time to realize after my euphoric few weeks.. The comfort was worse. Not because of weight, nor pain this time, but because mobility was even more hampered. The issue was, it lifted the headphone's center of gravity higher, and made them feel more on a pivot (your head being the pivot). While nowhere near as bad as the pain from the metal headband touching your head, it was still nonetheless more annoying the moment I tried the HD6XX. I could not believe how light and easy going those headphones were.

So for sound quality LCD's are great. But using them is next to impossible for me, and I would wager for many people given enough time due to this -quite frankly- idiotic design choice.

Thank you for your detailed writeup of your experiences with LCDs! That does not sound very good at all. I will only be using them at home for stationary use but still. Should probably stay away from the LCDs in that case as these would be my first real headphones and thus, my main headphones for a while until I can get a second pair.

Have you had a chance to try the HP-3 that has been suggested in this thread?
My listening genres is a complicated mix. High treble and low bass/subbass with Kpop and Trance, and then the metal requires good mids as well - bah!

I love my HD 6XX. There are some nice DAC/Head Amp combos which have been tested here. The Topping DX3 Pro comes to mind. A single box is neater. I use a Grace Design M9xx with my cans. It's pretty, but pricey.

I agree that a single box is neater - however it can present more difficulties when upgrading unless it has pre-outs and/or line in. The Klipsch Heritage Amp that was suggested here would be amazing as it has both, allowing me to upgrade the DAC or amp individually and in steps.

Will check out Grace Design!


By the way, does anyone have any experiences with Pro-Ject amp/DACs, if so which? They are fairly easy to get a hold of in Sweden and seem to have gotten good reviews!

 

[M00ndancer]

The Topping DX3 Pro comes to mind. A single box is neater.

Available in EU as well: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...plifier-bluetooth-apt-x-hd-black-p-13453.html

 

[andreasmaaan]

Cool! This might be another topic but what are some good software EQs that you can recommend (for Mac mainly but would be great if it works for Windows as well)? And will they only work with a specific program (iTunes, Spotify, etc) or is the EQ applied to ALL output?

I don't have a Mac so I'm not sure, but IIUC the options are a little more limited.

For Windows, probably the easiest free way to do it is with Equalizer APO. It has its own in inbuilt EQ, but probably the better approach would be to generate an EQ curve with RePhase (also free) and then plug it into Equalizer APO as a *.txt file.

I agree that a single box is neater - however it can present more difficulties when upgrading unless it has pre-outs and/or line in. The Klipsch Heritage Amp that was suggested here would be amazing as it has both, allowing me to upgrade the DAC or amp individually and in steps.

The products people are recommending here are mostly endgame products, in the sense that their levels of noise and distortion are so low that they are almost certainly inaudible. The only reason to change in future would be in the case of something breaking, or an older format (e.g. USB or PCM, which seem to be here to stay for the foreseeable future) becoming obsolete.

 

[Tks]

Sorry, I’ve not tried the HE’s

One thing I think everyone should try are the HD800’s. Even in-store with all the noise, they sat so well on my head, I feel as if the sound was better just on that alone(obviously it’s not, but comfort played a massive role coming from the LCD). This thing costs an arm and a leg at retail, so I’d avoid that, but in terms of performance, they are some of the least distorting headphones, so they’re good for all genres I would hazard to say. Sure there is a spike in the treble region that can be EQ’d if you’re not hyper sensitive(or gone if you have the HD800S), and as a dynamic you will notice a slight subdued sub-bass (compared to good planets from LCD for instance).

But tbh if you’re seeking thump, the HD6XX even have it. And with EQ, they have it in abundance with a proper AMP.

I haven’t critically listened to many headphones in a dead silent room to say for certain (with some personalized subjective qualification on how much “bass” a headphone could lack when driven to their limits), but I feel we are in a time where many headphones these days would qualify as end-games a decade ago. You really can’t go wrong in terms of sound quality much today, but perhaps sound signature you can have something you might not prefer (again, we thankfully have EQ).

As for software Equalizer APO (with Peace GUI if you need it) is the defacto on Windows I would say. And as for Mac, I haven’t the slightest clue >_< I should look it up.