New headphone stack: Topping or Gustard?

[saadi703]

I wonder why people (in general) keep recommending RME ADI-2 DAC although cheaper and better options are available? What RME has over other DACs beside limited EQ functionality which you can do on windows easily. It also has weaker amp section for harder to drive headphones.

 

[mrbungle]

I wonder why people (in general) keep recommending RME ADI-2 DAC although cheaper and better options are available? What RME has over other DACs beside limited EQ functionality which you can do on windows easily. It also has weaker amp section for harder to drive headphones.

I recommended it because it’s just slightly over the apparent budget and has all the requested features, except the ‘nice to have‘ Bluetooth. I guess with ‘limited EQ‘ you mean 5 band + treble and bass limit. I EQ in Roon and then only fine tune via remote as I mentioned. I like it and it’s more than sufficient for my purposes. Having only occasionally needed features like crossfeed on the remote is also way more convenient than going through the software settings. But yes, it might be overkill for many, especially since the OP mentioned they prefer swapping headphones and IEMs.

Being new-ish to the hobby, I always wondered why people keep recommending those super powerful amps when headphones seem to become more and more efficient. Probably some Tim Allen/Home improvement kind of thing. (Not completely regretting my A90 purchase because it does everything I need really well, albeit in low gain ;-) )

 

[Jimbob54]

I wonder why people (in general) keep recommending RME ADI-2 DAC although cheaper and better options are available? What RME has over other DACs beside limited EQ functionality which you can do on windows easily. It also has weaker amp section for harder to drive headphones.

Ill give you 2 very good reasons:

1. Ive had a "cheaper and better" amp kill an expensive pair of headphones
2. Check out this thread regarding one of the "cheaper and better" DACs on the market- turns out its cheaper, but quite possibly not better at all in real world use.https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/strange-smsl-m500-high-3rd-harmonic.22710/

 

[saadi703]

I recommended it because it’s just slightly over the apparent budget and has all the requested features, except the ‘nice to have‘ Bluetooth. I guess with ‘limited EQ‘ you mean 5 band + treble and bass limit. I EQ in Roon and then only fine tune via remote as I mentioned. I like it and it’s more than sufficient for my purposes. Having only occasionally needed features like crossfeed on the remote is also way more convenient than going through the software settings. But yes, it might be overkill for many, especially since the OP mentioned they prefer swapping headphones and IEMs.

Being new-ish to the hobby, I always wondered why people keep recommending those super powerful amps when headphones seem to become more and more efficient. Probably some Tim Allen/Home improvement kind of thing. (Not completely regretting my A90 purchase because it does everything I need really well, albeit in low gain ;-) )

Yes to me 5 band is limited and there is always a free way to use EQ called Equalizer APO + Peace UI and other options and then paid app for streaming such as Roon etc.

We are talking about current situation and not future and currently there are planners like my Suvara and Arya which needs dedicted powerful amp like A90 and builtin amp section of RME does not cut it. When I started this hobby 1.5 years back I didn’t know that within 6 months I would end up buying Susvara so I am glad that I bought dac and amp separately and I have to upgrade my amp only. Buying an RME as DAC only is like paying more for less.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes to me 5 band is limited and there is always a free way to use EQ called Equalizer APO + Peace UI and other options and then paid app for streaming such as Roon etc.

We are talking about current situation and not future and currently there are planners like my Suvara and Arya which needs dedicted powerful amp like A90 and builtin amp section of RME does not cut it. When I started this hobby 1.5 years back I didn’t know that within 6 months I would end up buying Susvara so I am glad that I bought dac and amp separately and I have to upgrade my amp only. Buying an RME as DAC only is like paying more for less.

How do you know the RME wont power the Arya? My Ether CX are similar spec and are fine. (I'll give you the Susvara will be a challenge for most, especially single ended amps)

 

[saadi703]

Ill give you 2 very good reasons:

1. Ive had a "cheaper and better" amp kill an expensive pair of headphones
2. Check out this thread regarding one of the "cheaper and better" DACs on the market- turns out its cheaper, but quite possibly not better at all in real world use.https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/strange-smsl-m500-high-3rd-harmonic.22710/

Yes, some of the cheaper stuff might have this issue and but this can happen to anyone and I have expensive amps doing that as well when some op amp has gone bad. I have never bought any SMSL product so I have no experience using their products.

I am using D90 + A90 with Susvara, Arya, HD800s, Elex, AKG 702, a couple of more sennhessiers and never had any issue. Previously I was using Monoprice THX 887 and had zero issues.

Gustard also have nice product line with Dac and amp costing much cheaper than RME and amp is powerful enough to even run Susvara.

I don’t see any point in buying RME at this point unless someone gets a very good used deal.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, some of the cheaper stuff might have this issue and but this can happen to anyone and I have expensive amps doing that as well when some op amp has gone bad. I have never bought any SMSL product so I have no experience using their products.

I am using D90 + A90 with Susvara, Arya, HD800s, Elex, AKG 702, a couple of more sennhessiers and never had any issue. Previously I was using Monoprice THX 887 and had zero issues.

Gustard also have nice product line with Dac and amp costing much cheaper than RME and amp is powerful enough to even run Susvara.

I don’t see any point in buying RME at this point unless someone gets a very good used deal.

Depends on your territory I suppose but in the UK, the RME was less than the d90/a90 stack

 

[saadi703]

Depends on your territory I suppose but in the UK, the RME was less than the d90/a90 stack

I am talking about Gustard stack that it costs less than RME and can drive any headphone unlike RME. I bought D90/A90 not because they were cheaper but the freedom to use separate components which are upgradable independent of each other. Also A90 drives every headphone unlike RME.
Edit: I bought A90 when it came out as it was the cheapest amp that can drive Susvara as Gustard stack was not available at that time.

 

[abdo123]

the H16 has a discrete circuit which I assume to mean that it is a completely 'analog' circuit. so longevity and repair ability should be slightly better.

otherwise i would just pick the ones with the better feature set.

 

[mkawa]

the su-9 and sh-9 stack will power any headphone and costs 500$ less than an RME ADI-2. the RME is a great deal if you want hardware EQ and an ADC, but there _are_ plenty of cheaper options that don't include these features and are instrumentation grade. the geshelli j2 and archel combo is even cheaper, made in the USA, etc.

i've had an m500 since v1 and i've always run it with an external headphone amp, so i can't comment on the integrated HPA, but the third harmonic issue, even if it affects my unit, is inaudible. i also trust that SMSL, once they figure out what serial numbers are affected, will recall defective units. topping also ran a large recall campaign on the l30.

if you really want to mince things, the sonata hp pro and an SP200 or 789 will power anything and measure as well as anything above.

choose based on what you really actually need, form factor, features, user interface, availability, etc. but don't just blindly blow the 1300 on an ADI-2. i mean, for 1300 you can get a pair of 8030Cs. it's a decent chunk of change.

 

[Jimbob54]

the su-9 and sh-9 stack will power any headphone and costs 500$ less than an RME ADI-2. the RME is a great deal if you want hardware EQ and an ADC, but there _are_ plenty of cheaper options that don't include these features and are instrumentation grade. the geshelli j2 and archel combo is even cheaper, made in the USA, etc.

i've had an m500 since v1 and i've always run it with an external headphone amp, so i can't comment on the integrated HPA, but the third harmonic issue, even if it affects my unit, is inaudible. i also trust that SMSL, once they figure out what serial numbers are affected, will recall defective units. topping also ran a large recall campaign on the l30.

if you really want to mince things, the sonata hp pro and an SP200 or 789 will power anything and measure as well as anything above.

choose based on what you really actually need, form factor, features, user interface, availability, etc. but don't just blindly blow the 1300 on an ADI-2. i mean, for 1300 you can get a pair of 8030Cs. it's a decent chunk of change.

In fairness , I think you are talking about the price of the RME ADI 2 Pro (the one with the ADC), the ADI 2 DAC (only one headphone out, no ADC) is considerably less- £800 compared to £1500 or so. But yes, the ADI 2 DAC is technically overkill for most use cases, but it is a joy to own. Cant say it "sounds" better though.

 

[mkawa]

oh, yah, i always forget that it's the dac version that costs 1300 USD here. the ADC is significantly more, but yes, please ignore the ADC bit of the rant above.

 

[RHO]

choose based on what you really actually need, form factor, features, user interface, availability, etc. but don't just blindly blow the 1300 on an ADI-2. i mean, for 1300 you can get a pair of 8030Cs. it's a decent chunk of change.

Yes, this is exactly what I have been thinking about these last days. And my experience with the DX3pro tells me I don't need more than what that unit does. For the headphones I own it is plenty powerful, I have all the connections I want (I do use BT LDAC), I don't use EQ (but I have Equalizer APO + Peace installed and have some EQ profiles saved).
I actually think that those hugely powerful amps are less practical with the headphones and IEMs I own. The range on the volume know becomes very limited with headphones and IEMs with normal to high sensitivity.
So I something in the range of the D50s + A50s becomes more and more interesting. I maybe need to look into some more reviews of dacs and amps in that segment.
Aesthetics also play a part in my decision.

 

[mkawa]

i have an m400 + sp400 stack, sonata hd pro, sonada bhd, m500, geshelli archel 2.5, sabaj d5, a50s, d30pro, meizu hifi pro, all in different systems, applications. these power an hd800s, elex, hd600

the m400 + sp400 stack is ridiculously overpowered. it was a splurge on my part to be able to handle anything that my 4th headphone hanger can throw at it (want to try an he-6v2, but i have a strict 4 headphones at a time limit). the sonata hd pro is fantastic and serves as the dac for my a50s in the bedroom. desktop performance for almost nothing, and the a50s can drive anything balanced and most things unbalanced. the sonata bhd is something i just picked up for portability of my hd800s (i am out of town at the moment). my partner uses the archel 2.5 and m500 as the system for her audeze lcd1, the sabaj d5 is in my living room connected to the tv. the d30pro is a preamp for my genelecs. the meizu got lost behind a couch for 6 months..

i would be hard pressed to ABT any one of these dacs and HPAs. the only time i could tell the difference was with the m500 driving the LCD1 alone. it was reaching for current it didn't have, i think. insufficient power is the only time i can ABT anything. in fact, some of these are going up for sale (a50s -- i stopped using the bedroom system, m500v1 -- just the wrong form factor to match an archel) because they're superfluous, and no other reason.

i think i can say with authority that there is no difference between high quality well reviewed panther parts reviewed on this site except for power and feature limitations.

 

[RHO]

The things I'm most concerned about are the usability with IEMs (noise floor & gain) and power for medium efficiency, high impedance headphones (I don't need 3W of output) in 1 HP-amp.
For the DAC my main concerns are connectivity (USB, Toslink, BT with LDAC) and ability to decode "all" formats (with exception of MQA).
It speaks for itself that very decent SINAD numbers are a must.
Like I said before, a small upgrade from the Topping DX3pro, in some way, would be nice.
...Would a DX7pro be a good option? Besides having balanced connections, what does it do much better than the DX3pro?
What about SMSL SU-9 + SH9?

 

[mkawa]

well, first question is probably: do you need a remote? the smsl remote is much better than the topping remotes.

 

[RHO]

Currently the Topping sets right in front of me. So I think I can live without a remote.

edit: Looking at the measurements, it seems like the DX7pro is less ideal for use with IEMs but just a little better when using the XLR HP out. It would also serve as a very good DAC.
SU9 + SH9 performs very good across the board but has no real balanced output. (what use does the XLR HP out have???)

 

[Atanasi]

ADI-2 DAC supports SPDIF capture-process-playback cycle, which I consider a valuable feature compared to most DACs. I can capture SPDIF input to the host computer, process it (mixing, DSP) and play back the result.

 

[RHO]

ADI-2 DAC supports SPDIF capture-process-playback cycle, which I consider a valuable feature compared to most DACs. I can capture SPDIF input to the host computer, process it (mixing, DSP) and play back the result.

Nice, but I have no use for that. So I'm not really willing to pay extra for functionality that I will, most probably, never need/use.

With regards to the A50s + D50s stack: Looks like the DX3pro has actually the better HP amp, but the D50s is better as a DAC.
So D50s with a better HP amp is also an option.

 

[mkawa]

if your HPs are balanced, the a50s is a powerhouse. if your HPs are unbalanced, @JohnYang1997 has said that he designed the L30 for clean power to unbalanced (and the a50s for clean balanced power). what you could do is get a d50s and an a30pro. iirc the a30pro leads the 50mv leaderboards, does it not?

another option, if you're only driving IEMs, is the sonata HD pro and saying pshaw to the pressure to buy TOTL. My ER4s sound GREAT through the sonatas on my PC, and for 50$ it's impossible to go wrong. the cs4313 is an incredibly little chip.