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New GR-Research Video - Audiophile Cable Truths

Rick Sykora

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Or maybe he finally figured out he cannot rationalize using solid core wire for speaker internally and stranded externally?
 

H-713

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Maybe he actually tried to video one on the up and up and realized that he's full of it??

Possible, though I'd say that there is an equally (if not better chance) that he just got distracted / busy / forgot.
 

Harmonie

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I suspect I am not the only one who gets tired of the endless ranting about snake oil. If people want to promote and sell snake oil products, so be it. That's their choice, and they're making themselves look bad by doing so, but I see no real advantage to putting a bunch of time into slandering people. This is supposed to be fun, and the more negativity there is, the less fun it is. Maybe some people enjoy that part, but I really don't.

Paul McGowan / GR-Research isn't hurting me by promoting expensive cables. That's his choice, and I probably won't buy any of his products, but I really don't see a huge reason to hate on him. Yes, some uneducated buyers might fall into a trap, but that's no different from any other hobby / industry. Measurements are useful. Ranting about people who don't believe in them is neither productive nor enjoyable.

To be clear, I don't believe in any of the BS about cables. There are applications where cables do matter (and matter a LOT), but typical audio interconnects or speaker cables aren't on that list. I usually use RG58 or RG174 for RCA interconnects (because I have a lot of it in stock and it does the job), Canare L-4E6S for balanced interconnects (again, I have it in stock and it works fine). It's only 20 kHz, and it isn't high voltage. As long as it's reasonably well-shielded with reasonable capacitances, it's fine.

I do find this thread useful and have fun reading it too.
If you feel that PS Audio or GR-Research aren't hurting to promote their cables (not sure about PS Audio cables ? though); then just tell me what's wrong to oppose them in this thread ?
 

egellings

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No problem with them IFF (if and only if) they are not making bogus claims about the products' capabilities. That's an issue with cable & accessory suppliers, however.
 

H-713

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I do find this thread useful and have fun reading it too.
If you feel that PS Audio or GR-Research aren't hurting to promote their cables (not sure about PS Audio cables ? though); then just tell me what's wrong to oppose them in this thread ?

I never said there's anything wrong with disagreeing with them, but going off on a rant about them, or throwing insults, isn't helpful. It's possible to disagree (and express that viewpoint) without attacking the person who said it.
 

Chrispy

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I never said there's anything wrong with disagreeing with them, but going off on a rant about them, or throwing insults, isn't helpful. It's possible to disagree (and express that viewpoint) without attacking the person who said it.

Yeah, it's like when you go to one of myriad "audiophile" fora/groups where if you even bring up something like these opinions you'd find yourself banned/removed/warned about not poking at the "audiophiles". This is a safe place for speaking your mind on the 'phoolery out there....

These two have especially annoying videos as well....
 

Harmonie

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I never said there's anything wrong with disagreeing with them, but going off on a rant about them, or throwing insults, isn't helpful. It's possible to disagree (and express that viewpoint) without attacking the person who said it.

Agree, but I'm not sure that ASR members are "throwing insults" here. This site is well too civilized for that.
You did mention Paul however.
I invite you to see his "Pizza oven" video and see who he mentions and in what way. Just tell me your opinion then. (published elsewhere on ASR (by @MakeMineVinyl ).



Yeah, it's like when you go to one of myriad "audiophile" fora/groups where if you even bring up something like these opinions you'd find yourself banned/removed/warned about not poking at the "audiophiles". This is a safe place for speaking your mind on the 'phoolery out there....

These two have especially annoying videos as well....

ASR is quite welcoming different opinions and maybe different in that respect to the other "audiophile" groups that you describe. It may well be one of the reasons (like me) you are here ;)
 

H-713

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Actually, the first half of the video isn't too screwed up. His answer (short speaker cables, long balanced interconnects) is the preferable solution, in my book at least, since the copper losses in speaker cables are pretty high, and most preamps have a pretty beastly output anyways.

I don't like what Paul said about Amir (I think that, for the most part, Amir knows what he's doing), and he should have kept his trap shut rather than trash-talking. As should some ASR members.

I do think he (Paul) brings up one worthwhile point, which is that it's always best to have more than one set of measurements. Nobody is infallible, and I know very smart people who have taken bad measurements. Bad probe. Damaged cable. You forgot to terminate a transmission line. Something wasn't calibrated. I've done it, and I've watched very skilled veteran engineers do it. Amir's measurements are useful, but, having a few more people who can take measurements (and who do) is useful. All I can say, is if Paul thinks Amir's measurements aren't accurate, then he needs to prove it.

Finally, there's the issue of sample size. Amir usually only can test one such device, and sometimes that one device ends up being a bad one. For example, the QSC DCA2422 (I think that's the model) didn't look so hot here. It had high distortion on one channel, and I think there was another issue. I've had multiple DCA2422s through my shop, along with at least four or five 2nd generation PowerLight amps (which are almost the same), all of which had about 0.006% THD into a 4-ohm load, even at high power. They're also one of the most reliable power amplifiers ever made. I'm surprised Amir got a bad one.
 

Harmonie

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Actually, the first half of the video isn't too screwed up. His answer (short speaker cables, long balanced interconnects) is the preferable solution, in my book at least, since the copper losses in speaker cables are pretty high, and most preamps have a pretty beastly output anyways.

I don't like what Paul said about Amir (I think that, for the most part, Amir knows what he's doing), and he should have kept his trap shut rather than trash-talking. As should some ASR members.

I do think he (Paul) brings up one worthwhile point, which is that it's always best to have more than one set of measurements. Nobody is infallible, and I know very smart people who have taken bad measurements. Bad probe. Damaged cable. You forgot to terminate a transmission line. Something wasn't calibrated. I've done it, and I've watched very skilled veteran engineers do it. Amir's measurements are useful, but, having a few more people who can take measurements (and who do) is useful. All I can say, is if Paul thinks Amir's measurements aren't accurate, then he needs to prove it.

Finally, there's the issue of sample size. Amir usually only can test one such device, and sometimes that one device ends up being a bad one. For example, the QSC DCA2422 (I think that's the model) didn't look so hot here. It had high distortion on one channel, and I think there was another issue. I've had multiple DCA2422s through my shop, along with at least four or five 2nd generation PowerLight amps (which are almost the same), all of which had about 0.006% THD into a 4-ohm load, even at high power. They're also one of the most reliable power amplifiers ever made. I'm surprised Amir got a bad one.

Nothing is just White or just Black and we agree then, short speaker/long interconnects (not necessarily balanced) included.
 

Ashley Salmond

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Amir this is GOLD!

Thank you!
Although I do agree with Amir on this video, I don't agree with his approach to Danny. I think he could have been a little more resptful in his approach as Danny has offered more to Audiophile than what Amir has. Also a point that is with considering is quantum physics. When you consider the Double Slit experiment, that even Einstein describe as spooky science. By that I mean if you test a experiment you can get a different result than if you don't. I encourage you to look at this Double Slit Experiment. So this may give a possible explanation as to why people draw conclusions opposite to what testing does. I agree with Amir, but not on his approach.
 

silentt29

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Although I do agree with Amir on this video, I don't agree with his approach to Danny. I think he could have been a little more resptful in his approach as Danny has offered more to Audiophile than what Amir has. Also a point that is with considering is quantum physics. When you consider the Double Slit experiment, that even Einstein describe as spooky science. By that I mean if you test a experiment you can get a different result than if you don't. I encourage you to look at this Double Slit Experiment. So this may give a possible explanation as to why people draw conclusions opposite to what testing does. I agree with Amir, but not on his approach.

What is the connection between "audiophile" cables and the double-slit experiment?
 

SIY

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What is the connection between "audiophile" cables and the double-slit experiment?

As soon as "quantum" is mentioned with respect to audio, put your hands over your wallet and slowly back out the door.
 

silentt29

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As soon as "quantum" is mentioned with respect to audio, put your hands over your wallet and slowly back out the door.

I ask because I've often seen references to the double-slit experiment and the Observer Effect in regards to audio tomfoolery, but I've just never read a thorough explanation on how it would affect any audio tests in question, like it's just supposed to be acknowledged and left alone.
 

SIY

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I ask because I've often seen references to the double-slit experiment and the Observer Effect in regards to audio tomfoolery...

A reliable indicator that whomever made that reference is either a charlatan or an ignoramus. Double slit has zero to do with observer effect, and neither has any relationship whatever to audio.

But they sound mysterious, so WOOOOOOO WOOOOOOOOO buy my stuff!
 

Andrew s

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Poor old quantum theory. With out quantum physics we would not have atoms and hence us. No conductors, semi conductors or insulators. In fact nothing audio relies on.

To modern science the double slit experiment is well explained by theory and the results are not at all spooky.

What is spooky is any claims made without a shread of proof beyond purely subjective listening. Be they classical or quantum in their (pseudo) science.

Regards Andrew
 

mhardy6647

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Poor old quantum theory. With out quantum physics we would not have atoms and hence us. No conductors, semi conductors or insulators. In fact nothing audio relies on.
... and then there's that tendency in the popular press to ascribe bigness to the idea of a quantum leap... :facepalm:
Little do the ad copywriters and third-rate middle-managers know -- they'd be more accurate using quantum leap in place of the execrable phrase take(s) it to the next level.
 
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