New Genelec Main Monitor

[Moti]

N

the 8380 is a big verstaile monitor mainly used soffit mounted

This is indeed nice option with 8380. What are the pros and cons compared to free standing near front wall?

 

[dfuller]

The S360 does not turn off the tweeter, but it does increase distortion.

2nd order, which is pretty much inaudible unless pathological.

I wonder if the 8361 engaging limiters is a problem with musical content. In Amir's test, it limits tweeter output above 7500 Hz with a sine wave sweep. With musical content, I think it's more likely that the 8361's limits are reached because the bass driver's limits encountered. The energy content of very high frequencies is often limited.

More a problem with transients than with continuous levels. If you need to (relatively) cleanly hit 105dB peaks, that is going to be a problem if your speaker limits to protect itself below that.

 

[Pearljam5000]

My own speculation is that the crossover with the woofer in the S360 is at 1400 Hz whereas it's at about 500 Hz in the 8380. Thus a midrange driver is needed on the 8380. And since we have midrange driver, the tweeter only need to go down to 2500 Hz. This allows a dome tweeter to be used instead of a compression driver.


I wonder if the 8361 engaging limiters is a problem with musical content. In Amir's test, it limits tweeter output above 7500 Hz with a sine wave sweep. With musical content, I think it's more likely that the 8361's limits are reached because the bass driver's limits encountered. The energy content of very high frequencies is often limited.

In general, other than SPL
Which is better, compression driver or dome tweeter?

 

[kharan]

In general, other than SPL
Which is better, compression driver or dome tweeter?

Each radiates differently.

More a problem with transients than with continuous levels. If you need to (relatively) cleanly hit 105dB peaks, that is going to be a problem if your speaker limits to protect itself below that.

I wasn't clear in my previous post and focused on the wrong thing. Upon rethinking, the limiter probably engaged because Amir had been playing high level high frequency content for some duration. After all, a sine wave a shortish but continuous signal and when that sweep was playing through the tweeter, all the power was going through the tweeter.

My question is how likely is it for the total power of the content above 2800 Hz to hit the power of a 106 dB sine sweep for long enough to engage protection? Even if you're playing treble rich transients cresting at 106 dB, maybe at most a third of the sound power is going through the tweeter. The tweeter covers the three top octaves, most likely, even with treble rich transients, it handles less power than 1/3 the power of a 106 dB sine wave at say 5000 Hz.

 

[dfuller]

In general, other than SPL
Which is better, compression driver or dome tweeter?

Neither. They have different use cases.

My question is how likely is it for the total power of the content above 2800 Hz to hit the power of a 106 dB sine sweep for long enough to engage protection? Even if you're playing treble rich transients cresting at 106 dB, maybe at most a third of the sound power is going through the tweeter. The tweeter covers the three top octaves, most likely, even with treble rich transients, it handles less power than 1/3 the power of a 106 dB sine wave at say 5000 Hz.

Ultimately, it depends on the program material. Kind of a crappy answer.

 

[dfuller]

I read some somewhere that dome tweeters are smoother than compression drivers but not sure if it's true

Nonsense. Was this "somewhere" ChatGPT?

 

[Duke]

Which is better, compression driver or dome tweeter?

Compression drivers are usually optimized for high SPL, typically for use in non-studio prosound applications. And dome tweeters are usually optimized for home audio or recording studio applications. So, generalizing in very broad terms, I would say that dome tweeters tend to be "better" for home audio. But there are enough exceptions to arguably make that generalization useless, because from a sound quality standpoint there are some excellent compression drivers readily available.

There are inevitable complications that arise with the use of a compression driver, as a waveguide or horn is mandatory rather than optional, along with the typically more complex crossover that calls for. Of course if the dome tweeter is used in a waveguide, the crossover requires at least one additional equalization filter to compensate for the effect of the waveguide on the frequency response.

(For a either kind of tweeter on a constant-directivity horn or waveguide, like what Genelec uses, what happens is this: All of its output is funnelled into the angle set by the waveguide, so instead of the low end of the tweeter's output spreading out across a wide area, it's concentrated into the waveguide's pattern. This concentration boosts the on-axis output at the low end, and this boostage has to be corrected via equalization. The good news of course is that once the on-axis response has been corrected by this equalization the off-axis response has also been corrected, and in the case of a dome tweeter often a bit lower crossover frequency becomes feasible.)

It really comes down to the specifics of the use case, so in practice it's a matter of "which system design is the best for this application", rather than "which tweeter is the best by this or that metric".

 

[Pearljam5000]

Compression drivers are usually optimized for high SPL, typically for use in non-studio prosound applications. And dome tweeters are usually optimized for home audio or recording studio applications. So, generalizing in very broad terms, I would say that dome tweeters tend to be "better" for home audio. But there are enough exceptions to arguably make that generalization useless, because from a sound quality standpoint there are some excellent compression drivers readily available.

There are inevitable complications that arise with the use of a compression driver, as a waveguide or horn is mandatory rather than optional, along with the typically more complex crossover that calls for. Of course if the dome tweeter is used in a waveguide, the crossover requires at least one additional equalization filter to compensate for the effect of the waveguide on the frequency response.

(For a either kind of tweeter on a constant-directivity horn or waveguide, like what Genelec uses, what happens is this: All of its output is funnelled into the angle set by the waveguide, so instead of the low end of the tweeter's output spreading out across a wide area, it's concentrated into the waveguide's pattern. This concentration boosts the on-axis output at the low end, and this boostage has to be corrected via equalization. The good news of course is that once the on-axis response has been corrected by this equalization the off-axis response has also been corrected, and in the case of a dome tweeter often a bit lower crossover frequency becomes feasible.)

It really comes down to the specifics of the use case, so in practice it's a matter of "which system design is the best for this application", rather than "which tweeter is the best by this or that metric".

Thanks

 

[DSJR]

Is there going to be a new 8000 MKII series with newer drivers/amps?

VERY cheeky response -

Don't you need to get a set of mk1s first before worrying about mkII possibilities?

 

[Pearljam5000]

VERY cheeky response -

Don't you need to get a set of mk1s first before worrying about mkII possibilities?

Is cheeky a bad thing?
I meant like Neumann KH120 II that has a new woofer and amps if I'm not mistaken

 

[DSJR]

Is cheeky a bad thing?
I meant like Neumann KH120 II that has a new woofer and amps if I'm not mistaken

I'd just like to get a decent listen to ANY of 'em to be honest. I'm a big-box lad still and still interested, but can never own things like this now except in my dreams KH120 IIs are rather smaller, so a more compact amp design may well be the best option. Not an issue in an enclosure this size.

Tell you summat though, we here are SO lucky that Genelec will talk to us and lay out much of the thinking behind their designs. My only beef is that I still find the model numbers confusing (apologies, but I do). I remain in awe of those that can work with larger monitors like this and their competing equivalents.

 

[dfuller]

I'm a big-box lad still and still interested, but can never own things like this now except in my dreams

1237s are calling your name my friend.

 

[Pearljam5000]

If you don't soffit mount them
Would they still sound better than 8361 at a home environment?

 

[ssashton]

I'll come out and say it - compression drivers have a higher chance of in-band resonances or destructive inteference than direct radiators. That is simply because the acoustic path is more complex and takes more optimisation to get just right. So, if you don't need the extreme SPL, a direct radiator tweeter in a comparativly shallow waveguide is likely (but not garunteed) to give cleaner, more extended, resonance free response within its comfortable SPL range.

There are of course 'gotchas' that make this a generalisation. Actually, all tweeters in KEF uni-q can be called a compression driver, because the tangerine waveguide is desiged to provide compressive boost as well as shape the wavefront.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Is there anything better than 8380 at the same price of $20K?
Geithain ? KEF Blade Meta? 8361+subs?

 

[kharan]

Is there anything better than 8380 at the same price of $20K?
Geithain ? KEF Blade Meta? 8361+subs?

Go listen to them, seriously.

Research tells us that an absence of resonance, a smooth directivity index, a flatish frequency response and extended bass are some of the basis of good sound.

Past that, you'll find a lot of divergence, like constant vs sloping directivity index, how far down the frequency range should the directivity be narrow, how wide in general should the directivity be... For those, we don't have preference data, and that preference will likely be influenced by the room you're listening in.

Well performing speakers, like the Kef Blade, the different big Genelecs, the big Neumanns, or the Mofi floorstanders meet the first set of criteria with little issues. Just go listen to them all and buy whichever you prefer.

 

[Elkios]

A simple curves adjustment doesn't reveal much:
View attachment 476549

Other than Genelec copying Neumann's homework
View attachment 476550

/s

Sony made various positioned front ports of all shapes back in the 90s .

 

[Karmacoma]

Is there anything better than 8380 at the same price of $20K?
Geithain ? KEF Blade Meta? 8361+subs?

I'd say the blades and the d&d 8c, but with lower SPL and distorsion limits, and not as good at all vertical directivity for the 8c

These graphs are insane

 

[MKR]

Is there anything better than 8380 at the same price of $20K?
Geithain ? KEF Blade Meta? 8361+subs?

Yes

 

[Ilkka Rissanen]

My own speculation is that the crossover with the woofer in the S360 is at 1400 Hz whereas it's at about 500 Hz in the 8380. Thus a midrange driver is needed on the 8380. And since we have midrange driver, the tweeter only need to go down to 2500 Hz. This allows a dome tweeter to be used instead of a compression driver.