New FiiO K17 R2R or K17 + Warmer R2R

[Abdo]

Good evening,

I'm trying to decide what to buy: a Fiio K17 R2R (new model) or a K17 unit and a Fiio Warmer R2R together. Buying them separately would give me the option of two DACs with different sounds. What's your opinion on this?

 

[Svend P]

Why do you believe they will sound differently?

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Redacted]

Warm? Put me down for the Blazing Saddles version and free can of beans.....

 

[xray]

Buying them separately would give me the option of two DACs with different sounds

The premise for your question is probably preventing you from getting the answer you expect.

 

[Chanur]

I would assume the warmer could sound a bit different because of the tubes in the warmer but depending on how it's built even that probably isn't true.

 

[Moon5123]

Why do you believe they will sound differently?

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I guess they should sound different as per science one have the bit definition of just 12 bits other has just 14 bit and the delta Sigma have 18 but depth.
As per community here only with THD over -110db we cannot hear any difference?

 

[Svend P]

As per community here only with THD over -110db we cannot hear any difference?

I would use the lenient threshold of -85 dB

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[LTig]

Good evening,

I'm trying to decide what to buy: a Fiio K17 R2R (new model) or a K17 unit and a Fiio Warmer R2R together. Buying them separately would give me the option of two DACs with different sounds. What's your opinion on this?

I would buy one DAC, with features that really make an audible difference: EQ for headphones and/or speakers. Starting with the Qudelix 5K up to RME ADI2 EX series.

 

[Chanur]

The K17 has 31 band PEQ.

 

[LTig]

... and an R2R DAC - that is a no go, at least for me. Either very expensive so not worth the money, or bad linearity, and sometimes both.

 

[Chanur]

... and an R2R DAC - that is a no go, at least for me. Either very expensive so not worth the money, or bad linearity, and sometimes both.

They make a non R2R version too. It's great.

 

[Georgrig]

Why do you believe they will sound differently?

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Because they do sound different. The K17 and Warmer have completely different performance metrics.

 

[Georgrig]

Good evening,

I'm trying to decide what to buy: a Fiio K17 R2R (new model) or a K17 unit and a Fiio Warmer R2R together. Buying them separately would give me the option of two DACs with different sounds. What's your opinion on this?

I have the K17 and Warmer combo but use them on speakers. The K17 and Warmer do sound different, mostly in that the highs when using the Warmer are highlighted less. Not bad having both, given that they do sound different. Haven't heard the new K17 R2R Pro. I know that they will release a Warmer with the same R2R Pro DAC in the future.

 

[LTig]

Because they do sound different. The K17 and Warmer have completely different performance metrics.

Are you sure the performance differences are big enough to be audible? Did you do a statistically valid controlled listening test?

 

[Georgrig]

Are you sure the performance differences are big enough to be audible? Did you do a statistically valid controlled listening test?

My dude, the stated SINAD of the Warmer R2R is 65 dB. Yes, it is very much audible.

Edit: In comparison, for the K17 the SINAD is 106 dB.

 

[LTig]

My dude, the stated SINAD of the Warmer R2R is 65 dB. Yes, it is very much audible.

Edit: In comparison, for the K17 the SINAD is 106 dB.

So, you didn't do a statistically valid controlled listening test. Are you aware that many people are unable to hear harmonic distortion below 1% (-40 dB !) with music?

 

[Georgrig]

So, you didn't do a statistically valid controlled listening test. Are you aware that many people are unable to hear harmonic distortion below 1% (-40 dB !) with music?

Well, I can and it's pretty obvious. And no, I didn't do a statistically controlled listening test cause I'm not 70 years old and I have a life. If you go by your claim (i.e., many people are unable to hear harmonic distortion below 1%), then what's the purpose of this very forum?

 

[LTig]

Well, I can and it's pretty obvious. And no, I didn't do a statistically controlled listening test cause I'm not 70 years old and I have a life.

This is exactly what they all claim. Usually a proper controlled listening test shows otherwise.

If you go by your claim (i.e., many people are unable to hear harmonic distortion below 1%), then what's the purpose of this very forum?

To find proper made hardware and identify the charlatans. But I agree with you and others that a pure SINAD number chase is meaningless. Noise should be as low as possible, and IMD. Pure HD not so much, but it may lead to higher IMD.

 

[solderdude]

The Warmer can be used in OS mode and NOS mode.
There is a noticeable difference in sound when switched between OS and NOS mode (a few dB difference in upper treble) just as there can be between certain filter settings in the K17.

The Warmer, on top of this, also has a tube that adds harmonics that depending on the recording/test signals can be potentially audible. (if there is no masking and the signal is loud enough).

The question is whether or not the K17 is used with any 'proper' filter and the Warmer is used in NOS mode with 44.1kHz files for the comparison.

 

[AgarWave]

Buying two different solid-state DACs to get "two different sounds" is an expensive way to trick your own brain. If both measure transparently, they will sound identical in a blind test.