New Dayton Epique Drivers

[MrPeabody]

Oddball drivers honestly. The specs scream "low distortion subwoofer" but their own Ultimax 8" is only $15 more than the Epique E180HE, with substantially more surface area.

Oddball comment. It remains to be seen whether these drivers are good in every respect (including distortion), but for the moment the fact that they are unusual doesn't mean anything.

As for the 8" Ultimax, it has major usability issues. The manufacturer claims that Qts is around .6, but independent measurements have shown it to be much higher, around .9. (With the two coils in series.) The enclosure needs to be incredibly large to avoid the high Q hump in the response in the vicinity of 50 to 60 Hz. To make a decent subwoofer with the 8" Ultimax it is essential to use EQ to suppress the big hump.

The primary goal in the design of these drivers is clearly for Bl to remain nearly constant over an unusually large range of excursion. If they have succeeded at this, then if there aren't other issues such as in the uniformity and smoothness of the frequency response, these could prove to be very desirable drivers. If the 7" driver does not prove to be vastly superior to the nearly useless 8" Ultimax, then the designers have missed the mark by a wide margin.

 

[KSTR]

To make a decent subwoofer with the 8" Ultimax it is essential to use EQ to suppress the big hump.

Bascially agree, but would anyone ever build a subwoofer without EQ? It's always needed.
The highish Qts of course really is a problem even when EQ'd, especially in a small box, where it will ring with the effective Qtc for any error signal, be it self-generated (like revovery from short excursion overload) or externally. The only way to tackle this is to use an amp with proper slightly negative output impedance so that Qtc, no matter which enclosure size choosen, is below 1, peferably 0.6... aperiodic damping for the error signal.

I'm still searching for a good and affordable DVC driver with as flat BL(x) as possible and overall decent beavior, to realize a refinement of David Birt's clever self-adjusting bridge to extract velocity signal from the voice coil for motional feedback.

 

[Pyropin]

Guess PartsExpress is calling them subwoofers because of the dual voice coils?

Quote from the project manager at PE:

"It's funny actually, these were originally going to be high excursion, low distortion compact subwoofers, possibly the best available for thier size (at this point they are still called subwoofers). However, due to the production delays last year they were refined to the point where either of them will be amazing as woofers in 2-way systems... some of the best on the market."

Hmmm, suspicious of non-linearity and distortion? 1.6 mH seems really high...interesting

You need to consider Le with repect to Re, which in this case is 6.7Ω. Thus, Le is ~24% of Re - quite nice, for what the driver is.

 

[Colonel7]

They are officially in stock. Here's the 7" with new specs. And the 5 1/2" specsheet

 

[HammerSandwich]

The 180 could attract people who want a Purifi but demand something much cheaper. It looks to have controlled breakup, impressively low distortion, and lots of Vd for something this size. Of course, sensitivity is terribly low, but at least it is a genuine 8-ohm driver.

In addition, the Epique's datasheet shows something I don't recall seeing before: an elevated low end combined with a reasonably low Qts. You could use 3-4dB for baffle step without losing any output above 500Hz.

 

[dc655321]

You could use 3-4dB for baffle step without losing any output above 500Hz.

Doesn't baffle step compensation quantity depend almost entirely on the baffle dimensions?

 

[HammerSandwich]

Sure, if you work to a "baffle step lowers bass by 6dB" plan, but there's plenty of room to adjust for the speaker's intended location or other design/preference factors. Example: IIRC, Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers) uses relatively little BSC for his regular speakers (meaning not the corner horns), because he doesn't want the reverberation to have much more bass than the direct sound. Apologies to Wayne if I've mistaken him for another speaker designer.

 

[Zvu]

Given that this is 18cm woofer, you will probably put it in 22-24cm wide cabinet. -3dB of baffle step for that baffle width is at about 500Hz which is exactly where response starts to rise (looking from right to left).

That means that it will measure flat 4pi in a cabinet of that width, making passive crossover quite easy to implement. Or active for that matter.

 

[dc655321]

Given that this is 18cm woofer, you will probably put it in 22-24cm wide cabinet. -3dB of baffle step for that baffle width is at about 500Hz which is exactly where response starts to rise (looking from right to left).

That means that it will measure flat 4pi in a cabinet of that width making passive crossover quite easy to implement. Or active for that matter.

I see. Thanks for that.
Of course, that assumes the FR provided in the spec sheet is true. Is skepticism warranted here?

 

[Zvu]

Regarding frequency response in specsheet, it is usually more correct than not at lower frequencies. Factories sometimes apply smoothing but that influence frequency response over 500Hz and makes larger aberations look less sinister.

Then again, my guess is as good as anyones.

 

[tktran303]

I see. Thanks for that.
Of course, that assumes the FR provided in the spec sheet is true. Is skepticism warranted here?

Dayton traditionally are pretty fair/honest about their measurements.

For this driver the measurement conditions are not (yet) specified; so it may be difficult to replicate.

However, in the past, (and lots of other Dayton woofer data sheets explicitly state this) they use “1/24th octave smoothing with a nearfield response included in graph below 450 Hz”

I have no reason to believe this will be any different. The clues are there- the bass response doesn’t have the dips and peaks associated with measurements under small baffle eg. IEC baffle conditions, and second, measurements go all the way down to 20Hz, which is not possible using an infinite baffle even with the largest of anechoic chambers)

So a small discrepancy will exist between this measurement data sheet and one’s own measurements due to different measurements conditions.

The most accurate is building your own box, and installing driver. then measuring, but again, this is subject to individual driver unit-to-unit variation (quality of consistency)

Measurements of individual drivers for loudspeaker design is an science and art in itself.

 

[Colonel7]

Interesting and short discussion with Chris Perez of Dayton on the new drivers

 

[Everett T]

Dayton traditionally are pretty fair/honest about their measurements.

For this driver the measurement conditions are not (yet) specified; so it may be difficult to replicate.

However, in the past, (and lots of other Dayton woofer data sheets explicitly state this) they use “1/24th octave smoothing with a nearfield response included in graph below 450 Hz”

I have no reason to believe this will be any different. The clues are there- the bass response doesn’t have the dips and peaks associated with measurements under small baffle eg. IEC baffle conditions, and second, measurements go all the way down to 20Hz, which is not possible using an infinite baffle even with the largest of anechoic chambers)

So a small discrepancy will exist between this measurement data sheet and one’s own measurements due to different measurements conditions.

The most accurate is building your own box, and installing driver. then measuring, but again, this is subject to individual driver unit-to-unit variation (quality of consistency)

Measurements of individual drivers for loudspeaker design is an science and art in itself.

IIRC they use Kippel for driver measurements.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Test Bench: The E150HE-44 5.5” Full-Range Subwoofer from the Dayton Audio Epique Line

This Test Bench explication focuses on the Dayton Audio Epique MMAG E150HE-44 "full-range subwoofer," in itself an interesting concept. Like its larger E180HE-44 brother in the Epique line, the E150HE-44 is based on the patented Multiple Magnet Air Gap (MMAG) technology invented by Enrique...

audioxpress.com

This thing handles power.

"However, having a 5.5” driver testing out to 20V is spectacular as most 5” drivers don’t make it past 10V."
"box simulation results for the E150HE-44 full-range subwoofer in the sealed and vented enclosures at 2.83V and at a voltage level that achieves excursion equal to Xmax + 15% (16.9mm for the E150HE). This resulted in a F3 of 64Hz (-6dB=51Hz) with a Qtc=0.60 for the closed box and a -3dB for the vented simulation of 45Hz (-6dB=38Hz). Increasing the voltage input to the simulations until the Xmax + 15% excursion was reached resulted in 108.5dB at 78V for the sealed enclosure simulation and 111.5dB with a 90V input level for the larger vented box"

Regarding excursion
"Displacement limiting numbers calculated by the Klippel analyzer for the full-range woofer using criteria for Bl was XBl @ 82% (Bl dropping to 82% of its maximum value) equal 13.6mm for the prescribed 10% distortion level. For the compliance, XC @ 75% Cms minimum was 15.6mm, which means that for the Dayton Audio woofer, the Bl is the more limiting factor for getting to the 10% distortion level. However, if we use the less conservative 20% distortion criteria, XBl @ 70%=17.7mm and XC @ 50% >17.7mm, showing the Bl number at the driver’s physical Xmax.

Figure 9 gives the inductance curve Le(X) for this transducer. Motor inductance will typically increase in the rear direction from the zero rest position as the voice coil covers more pole in a conventional motor, which is what you see in the graph. More importantly, the inductive “swing” from maximum inductance to minimum inductance from 14.7mm coil-in to 14.7mm coil-out is a relatively small 0.09mH, which is very good."

Low HD distortion in the bass for a 5.5" (94db @ meter/ 16volts)
rising only to 2% for both 2nd and 3rd at 50-60hrz!

Prolly going to want to cross it @ 2k, maybe 1500

 

[hardisj]

13.6mm

 

[Ricardus]

I get the catalog and have been curious about these drivers.

I am way out of my league on speaker upgrades, but I have some older KEFs I have thought about upgrading with these.

 

[airborne]

my coach used to say "give credit where credit is due" and i live by that

i have to give dayton credit here - they really know how to not over-estimate the intelligence of their customer

don't forget to order some silver interconnects with your "epique" "subwoofer"

i don't know how much longer i can take it

if it was up to me i would make DIY illegal and force everybody to use only JBL speakers by law.

it is for your own good.

somebody should save you people from yourselves and from Dayton.

this whole Dayton clown show is getting out of hand.

do you realize for the price of this piece of shit you can buy two complete JBL bluetooth speakers that are battery powered, portable, water resistant, have DSP and sound better than any trash you will build out of this Dayton trash ?

please come to your senses.

NOTHING dayton ever made has ever been worth buying but this turd takes the cake as the most worthless piece of shit they released yet.

personally i'm not interested in "subwoofers" smaller than 21" but if you're into micro-turds you could at least buy them from a reputable brand and not overpriced by factor of 4X ...

the dual gap concept itself is interesting ... but it's basically what Adire Audio XBL^2 motor was ...

what Dayton did here is they managed to stuff some jewel looking neo magnets in there yet still use a ferrite magnet at the same time to appeal to both the type of moron who likes huge magnets and the type of moron who likes cool looking toys ...

they got you BY THE BALLS - they see right into your soul and they know you are a sucker !

PS: huge thanks to the OP for making this thread. i was able to recycle my rant above into a thread at my own forum. of course the one at my forum is longer and profanity laced. keep it coming ! i need more comedy material !

 

[ROOSKIE]

my coach used to say "give credit where credit is due" and i live by that

i have to give dayton credit here - they really know how to not over-estimate the intelligence of their customer

don't forget to order some silver interconnects with your "epique" "subwoofer"

i don't know how much longer i can take it

if it was up to me i would make DIY illegal and force everybody to use only JBL speakers by law.

it is for your own good.

somebody should save you people from yourselves and from Dayton.

this whole Dayton clown show is getting out of hand.

do you realize for the price of this piece of shit you can buy two complete JBL bluetooth speakers that are battery powered, portable, water resistant, have DSP and sound better than any trash you will build out of this Dayton trash ?

please come to your senses.

NOTHING dayton ever made has ever been worth buying but this turd takes the cake as the most worthless piece of shit they released yet.

personally i'm not interested in "subwoofers" smaller than 21" but if you're into micro-turds you could at least buy them from a reputable brand and not overpriced by factor of 4X ...

the dual gap concept itself is interesting ... but it's basically what Adire Audio XBL^2 motor was ...

what Dayton did here is they managed to stuff some jewel looking neo magnets in there yet still use a ferrite magnet at the same time to appeal to both the type of moron who likes huge magnets and the type of moron who likes cool looking toys ...

they got you BY THE BALLS - they see right into your soul and they know you are a sucker !

PS: huge thanks to the OP for making this thread. i was able to recycle my rant above into a thread at my own forum. of course the one at my forum is longer and profanity laced. keep it coming ! i need more comedy material !

Seems like a very thoughtfully designed woofer, I am thinking of 2 ways that possibly trade a bit of midrange fidelity for very good bass response in a compact package without breaking the $bank like a Purifi does.

In any case the proof is in the pudding, Klippel analysis (which is as accurate as measurements get)suggest a very nice woofer that fills a fun niche for a reasonable cost $99 or $125.

All the magnet material is ferrite. No neodymium, the bucking magnets are not neo.
Anyway based on your other 119 posts I expect this to go south fast if I engage you further so I won't.

 

[Colonel7]

Test Bench: The E150HE-44 5.5” Full-Range Subwoofer from the Dayton Audio Epique Line

This Test Bench explication focuses on the Dayton Audio Epique MMAG E150HE-44 "full-range subwoofer," in itself an interesting concept. Like its larger E180HE-44 brother in the Epique line, the E150HE-44 is based on the patented Multiple Magnet Air Gap (MMAG) technology invented by Enrique...

audioxpress.com

This thing handles power.

"However, having a 5.5” driver testing out to 20V is spectacular as most 5” drivers don’t make it past 10V."
"box simulation results for the E150HE-44 full-range subwoofer in the sealed and vented enclosures at 2.83V and at a voltage level that achieves excursion equal to Xmax + 15% (16.9mm for the E150HE). This resulted in a F3 of 64Hz (-6dB=51Hz) with a Qtc=0.60 for the closed box and a -3dB for the vented simulation of 45Hz (-6dB=38Hz). Increasing the voltage input to the simulations until the Xmax + 15% excursion was reached resulted in 108.5dB at 78V for the sealed enclosure simulation and 111.5dB with a 90V input level for the larger vented box"

Regarding excursion
"Displacement limiting numbers calculated by the Klippel analyzer for the full-range woofer using criteria for Bl was XBl @ 82% (Bl dropping to 82% of its maximum value) equal 13.6mm for the prescribed 10% distortion level. For the compliance, XC @ 75% Cms minimum was 15.6mm, which means that for the Dayton Audio woofer, the Bl is the more limiting factor for getting to the 10% distortion level. However, if we use the less conservative 20% distortion criteria, XBl @ 70%=17.7mm and XC @ 50% >17.7mm, showing the Bl number at the driver’s physical Xmax.

Figure 9 gives the inductance curve Le(X) for this transducer. Motor inductance will typically increase in the rear direction from the zero rest position as the voice coil covers more pole in a conventional motor, which is what you see in the graph. More importantly, the inductive “swing” from maximum inductance to minimum inductance from 14.7mm coil-in to 14.7mm coil-out is a relatively small 0.09mH, which is very good."

Low HD distortion in the bass for a 5.5" (94db @ meter/ 16volts)
rising only to 2% for both 2nd and 3rd at 50-60hrz!
View attachment 196257

Prolly going to want to cross it @ 2k, maybe 1500
View attachment 196258

Thanks for posting. Nice to see the performance is good. Hope the 7 inch is as well constructed. The 5 inch needs a passive radiator or two while the 7 inch can be ported fairly easily

 

[airborne]

Seems like a very thoughtfully designed woofer, I am thinking of 2 ways that possibly trade a bit of midrange fidelity for very good bass response in a compact package without breaking the $bank like a Purifi does.

In any case the proof is in the pudding, Klippel analysis (which is as accurate as measurements get)suggest a very nice woofer that fills a fun niche for a reasonable cost $99 or $125.

All the magnet material is ferrite. No neodymium, the bucking magnets are not neo.
Anyway based on your other 119 posts I expect this to go south fast if I engage you further so I won't.

so they styled ferrite to look like neodymium ... brilliant !

thanks for the heads up now i have to edit my post on my forum ...

as for your speaker idea ... i suppose you could cross it over to a small full-range driver like a 3" tectonic.

Home

Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3" Full-Range Speaker 4 OhmThe Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B 3" full-range speaker achieves the maximum amount of quality sound from small enclosure sizes. Aside from the benefits to acoustic engineers, the BMR's compact, square form factor also appeals to designers. BMR...

www.parts-express.com

cross them over at 400 hz or so.

in the history of bad ideas sacrificing midrange quality for anything at all is such a bad idea that at first i thought you are trolling me but then i remembered where i am and then i didn't know whether to laugh or cry ...

however by using a full-range instead of a tweeter you would be sacrificing the high end instead of mid-range and that is slightly less dumb.

of course a thinking person would sacrifice bass first, then treble, then midrange. but i have to be realistic here ...

if you want a really cool speaker you could use the Tectonic as mid-tweeter from about 400 hz to 4 khz or so and then a supertweeter above that.

meniscus sells kits with Tectonic mid-tweeter and a Ribbon Supertweeter but you would need to have the ribbon at exactly ear level to avoid beaming issues.

i mean obviously nothing worth owning can ever be built out of Dayton trash but since i can't stop you people i'm just trying to make the best out of bad situation here.