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New Dayton Epique Drivers

Colonel7

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These are available for pre-order. Another interesting design entrant into small box, low sensitivity, high xmax, and low Fs. The smaller driver looks like same 2-way use case as the smaller Purifi driver. @hardisj any thoughts on getting these in on the Klippel? @Rick Sykora maybe an inexpensive future alternative to the Purifi 6.5 for the Directiva. Supposed to be in stock within a month.

Guess PartsExpress is calling them subwoofers because of the dual voice coils?

295-102 - Epique E150HE-44 5-1/2" DVC MMAG Subwoofer 4 Ohm per Coil

295-104 - Epique E180HE-44 7" DVC MMAG Subwoofer 4 Ohm per Coil
 

Rick Sykora

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Thanks for sharing!

They do look really cool and a promising value, but for use in a Directiva 2-way, not so much. The main issue being low sensitivity, but also suspect the high frequency off-axis performance is not going to cut it. Will know better when PE publishes some measurements. ;)
 
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Colonel7

Colonel7

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Thanks for sharing!

They do look really cool and a promising value, but for use in a Directiva 2-way not so much. The main issue being low sensitivity, but also suspect the high frequency off-axis performance is not going to cut it. Will know better when PE publishes some measurements. ;)
They're certainly power hogs, especially if the sensitivity measures a db or lower on the test bench

Edit: aah, just noticed that Directiva is crossed at 2.5k so too high for the Epique although the Seas DXT can be crossed much lower
 
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hardisj

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14mm linear xmax?! Dayton uses Klippel products and they typically publish their spec with the IEC standard so I'm guessing that spec is legit. But it's still so high that I can't believe it's real. The sensitivity is low enough that it makes sense. Still, that's crazy.
 

q3cpma

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14mm linear xmax?! Dayton uses Klippel products and they typically publish their spec with the IEC standard so I'm guessing that spec is legit. But it's still so high that I can't believe it's real. The sensitivity is low enough that it makes sense. Still, that's crazy.
That surround sure makes you want to believe.
 

MrPeabody

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These do look interesting. The dual top plate setup is essentially a way to use the underhung approach with a high-excursion driver. Woofers generally use the overhung approach, with a long coil that extends well beyond the top plate in both directions. Tweeters are generally underhung, and with midrange drivers, some are underhung and some are overhung.

Conventional wisdom has long been that it needs to be one or the other, in order that the overlap between the coil and the gap will remain essentially constant over a large range of excursion. In one of the Klippel papers that discusses the various causes of distortion, there is a small graph and some accompanying text that briefly explores the possibility that it might actually be preferable for the length of the coil and the height of the gap to be the same. This is counterintuitive because it obviously means that the coil-gap overlap will begin to diminish as soon as the coil/diaphragm assembly has moved even a slight amount. The rationale, as briefly discussed in the Klippel paper, is that when it is done this way, only the low-order harmonics of the fundamental are stimulated at low excursion, while the high-order harmonics will actually be diminished and will remain weaker (vs. one of the conventional approaches) until excursion has nearly reached the mechanical limit. (To complete the picture of why this would be desired, we need also to consider that our hearing is apparently more sensitive to high-order harmonics than to low-order harmonics - because the masking effect of the fundamental isn't as strong for frequencies further away from the fundamental.)

Anyway, what we have here appears to be a solid effort to use the underhung approach with high-excursion drivers. The voice coil is presumably very short, however the length of the coil isn't stated, and one question that is raised is how the height of the gap should be measured. It isn't apparent whether the coil will remain fully within the space between the two top plates even at the mechanical limits of excursion, or whether, at high excursion, the coil will overlap one of the two top plates in one direction and the other top plate in the other direction. If this is what happens, then it is probably more like the approach suggested by the Klippel paper, i.e., the coil length and the gap height being approximately equal. In this case, the measurement of distortion for the driver will be tricky, and there is huge potential for misinterpretation of the distortion measurements. If the Klippel paper is correct, then we would possibly see that the low-order distortion components don't look very good at all, but that the high-order distortion components are exceptionally good even at unusually large excursion. And in this case it will be particularly important to interpret the distortion measurements in accordance with how we hear the individual harmonic components.

I've noticed in some of Erin's excellent and incredibly detailed analyses of drivers that he measures linearity separately from distortion. He measure both linearity and distortion in accordance with established standards for the respective measurements. I'm much too lazy to have bothered to read those standards, but I thought it was interesting that driver linearity and distortion would be treated as two separate things - I would have thought that they are so closely linked that each is merely a different way of looking at the other, and that the measurements would show this to be true. If Erin decides at some point to apply his driver analysis skills to one of these drivers, it will be an opportunity to delve a little deeper into the question of how the measurements of linearity and distortion each reveal something not revealed by the other. And it will be an opportunity to explore the question raised by that Klippel paper, if the drivers exhibit unusually high low-order distortion at low excursion but unusually low high-order distortion for most all of the excursion range.

One thing that I find interesting about these drivers is that the excursion capability seems to be beyond what would ordinarily be deemed useful in relation to the drivers' frequency range. I use a very formula to estimate what the F3 will be for a sealed speaker using the driver. For the smaller driver, my estimate is about 70 Hz, and for the larger driver, my estimate is about 55 Hz. These F3 values are not particularly low, and as such, it isn't apparent whether the unusually great excursion would matter much. Not to suggest that lower high-order distortion for a moderately large range of excursion isn't something to appreciate, but only that the extreme excursion, that these drivers are evidently capable of, might not be an important advantage in a typical application. One scenario where this should be a real and strong advantage is in a self-amplified speaker that uses EQ to extend the bass response to lower frequency. Nowadays it is fairly common for this to be done with small active monitors. It allows a small speaker to emulate a much bigger speaker, however one price that is paid when this is done is that driver excursion increases such that distortion at low frequency can go through the roof. We've seen this effect with some of the small speakers that Amir and Erin have examined. This suggests that one particular application where these drivers may prove to be highly desirable is in small active monitors that use EQ to extend the low bass. It may turn out that when speakers of this variety are built using one of these drivers, that these speakers will epitomize the very desirable property of the small speaker that sounds like a much bigger speaker. The smaller driver may be particularly desirable for use in small self-powered speakers to sit on a desktop, i.e., high-end computer speakers and the like. And both drivers may be particularly desirable for use in automotive applications, for anyone who has the skill to build the custom adapters required for automotive installation of ordinary drivers not intended for automotive application.
 

dtaylo1066

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Holy sensitivity, Batman! Better have the right power amp to drive these.
 

alex-z

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Oddball drivers honestly. The specs scream "low distortion subwoofer" but their own Ultimax 8" is only $15 more than the Epique E180HE, with substantially more surface area.
 
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Colonel7

Colonel7

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Oddball drivers honestly. The specs scream "low distortion subwoofer" but their own Ultimax 8" is only $15 more than the Epique E180HE, with substantially more surface area.
We'll need to see the FR. It's really meant to be a woofer in a 2 or 3 way since they're claiming it's smooth up to 3k. The UMM 8" is good through a few hundred Hz since it is a sub
 

hardisj

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Don't forget, the sensitivity is likely 2pi; assuming infinite baffle. Once you put these on a speaker on a real baffle, you'll get baffle step loss which brings the effective sensitivity down even further.
 

KSTR

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Hmmm, suspicious of non-linearity and distortion? 1.6 mH seems really high...interesting
As long as it is constant no problem... obviously, a large value has more potential for even a low variance of Le coming through.
 

MrPeabody

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Below is a link to the Klippel paper titled “Loudspeaker Nonlinearities – Causes, Parameters, Symptoms”.

Starting on page 30, section 5.2 deals with “Soft- and hard-limiting nonlinearities”. Figure 22 on page 30 show the spectral makeup of distortion occurring with a two-tone stimulus for the case where the coil and gap are equal in length. Figure 23, for the purpose of comparison, shows the spectral makeup of the distortion for the same two-tone stimulus but using a conventional overhung coil (conventional for woofers). The two tones in this test are separated by several octaves, the low tone at or close to 20 Hz and the higher tone at 1 kHz.

Figures 24, 25 and 26 offer another perspective on the same phenomenon. Figures 25 and 26 show how the 3rd, 5th and 7th harmonics increase with respect to excursion, for the equal-length case (figure 25) and the conventional overhung case (figure 26). Without question, total harmonic distortion, the sum of the individual harmonics, starts out worse for the equal-length case, for the obvious reason that coil-gap overlap begins to diminish with even small excursion. This is shown in figure 24, however the interesting thing about figure 24 is that it shows how, with the conventional equal-length configuration, THD increases very rapidly with increasing excursion once excursion has exceeded the linear range, such that at excursion somewhat beyond the linear range, THD is very nearly the same for both the equal-length case and the overhung case. Figures 25 and 26 provide some insight into why this happens. The 3rd and 5th harmonics start out large in the equal-length case compared to the overhung case, whereas the 7th harmonic (and higher harmonics) starts off no greater for the equal-length case than for the overhung case. More to the point, the rate of increase of the 7th, with respect to excursion, is less steep than it is with overhung case. Thus, the higher THD that is to be expected with the equal-length case is attributable to low-order harmonics (the 3rd and the 5th). Higher harmonics (the 7th and higher) do not contribute to the THD that is seen with the equal-length case at low excursion. And because of the lower rate of increase of the higher-order harmonics at excursion somewhat beyond the linear range (for the equal-length case), at large excursion values the high-order harmonics are weaker for the equal-length case than they are for the overhung case.

Essentially, we hear and are bothered by the high-order harmonics, which are not masked by the fundamental, and barely even notice the low-order harmonics. It may be that all along, the assumption that the the coil-gap overlap should remain constant - either the coil extending well beyond the gap or else the opposite - was a wrong assumption. It may be better for the coil length and the gap height to be equal.

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_m...linearities–Causes_Parameters_Symptoms_01.pdf
 

tktran303

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ASR is a community for consumers to make a purchase decision. Parts Express’ own TechTalk forum if more appropriate if one wants to talk and contribute to / from completed loudspeaker designers, amateur or professional.

In short It’s an answer to the trend of smaller loudspeakers with deeper bass enabled by more powerful amplification. This has been ongoing for at least 2 decades with the advent of cheap power, and DSP.

A pair of these drivers in 1 cu ft with passive radiators will enable 102 dB/1m per speaker, and SPL is displacement limited only below 25Hz.

early indications suggests it IS suitable as a midwoofer (usually frequency response to at least 2KHz where one would typically cross to a tweeter) based on geometry- cone size and profile and inductance control.
 
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McFly

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I can see these being sub/woofers perfect for active dsp plate driven designs which are getting more and more poular and the amps more powerful on narrow baffles front or rear, think of the two subwoofers on the back of the DD8C
 

KSTR

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Essentially, we hear and are bothered by the high-order harmonics, which are not masked by the fundamental, and barely even notice the low-order harmonics
We aren't listening to pure sine waves, though. Therefore, complex IMD (many tones) is the really important thing and IMD products coming from the low order harmonic are not masked.
 

Rick Sykora

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They're certainly power hogs, especially if the sensitivity measures a db or lower on the test bench

Edit: aah, just noticed that Directiva is crossed at 2.5k so too high for the Epique although the Seas DXT can be crossed much lower

Directiva r1 currently is using a higher crossover frequency. That may change. Am planning to stick with the Purifi woofer for now, but am interested in other possibilities for a larger Directiva tower AND potentially getting back to using the truncated pyramid to top it off.

Could help deal with sensitivity question by using 2 per speaker. The large excursion should also help with enough amplification. Still a bit early until get one to try and more detailed measurements. :)
 

Wolf

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Could circumvent sensitivity concerns by using a 2 ohm stable amp methinks.
This will also lower Le. I'm thinking MTM would improve a lot, but then you're out $400
and twice the cab volume.
 
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