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New audio room - shape

Karister

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Hi!

I am going to get a new house and I have ordered a custom project from the architect. I would like to have a dedicated listening room. He prepared the first version, and I wonder if I am able to get something reasonable out of it. While roof slants are symmetric, room proportions are far from perfect: 6m x 5,72m. The first image is the room plan. Second one illustrates roof positioning (audio room is above the garage on the right). Lowest point is 1.4m. Please ignore any furniture - it will be fully adjustable. While it tempts me with its hefty size, it is very close to square. Do you see any chances of getting something reasonable out of it? Putting speakers diagonally? Skewing one wall? Adding a partition wall and sacrificing a few square meters? Rounded or some other irregular shapes in cortners? I will hire a proffessional acoustics company when the time comes, but I do not want to ruin everything at the very beginning.

I am aiming for something like RME ADI2 DAC + Anthem STR / 2x Benchmark AHB2 + Martin Logan ESL / Triangle Signature Alpha / Dali Epicon + (optional) 2x REL T/i. This of course might (and probably will) change after auditioning some audio gear in the future, but I just want to give you a brief idea of what I am aiming for. What do you think about it? Worth trying, or is it no-go, and I should ask for rework?

Thanks for any advices.
 

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Helicopter

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I bet if you set it up like a smaller rectangle you will be fine. Volume is more important than ratio of length to width.
 
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Karister

Karister

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Thanks! Do you mean placing loudspeakers in a smaller rectangular area (using only a part of room for listening) or moving walls to make it more rectangular? :)
 

Helicopter

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Thanks! Do you mean placing loudspeakers in a smaller rectangular area (using only a part of room for listening) or moving walls to make it more rectangular? :)
Just move the speakers and listening position and pretend the side walls are closer than they really are. You will be better off that way, i.e., with more volume in the room, than you would be if you actually moved the side walls in and gave up some room volume.
 
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Karister

Karister

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Hi again. I have contacted several acoustic companies in my country (Poland) and I must admit I am kinda disappointed. They either want to measure ready room with already chosen and placed speakers or run a computer simulation to find the best layout for a particular room plan without any advising on its tweaking at the project stage. The first approach surprises me as I thought that a room with good acoustics is just a room with good acoustics for any speakers. Am I wrong?

One company was slightly more open for cooperation and they advised me to place roof windows symmetrically on both roof slants, behind listening position. They also advised making the room more rectangular by extending the longer wall from 6m to 6.6m.

What do you think about it? Am I expecting too much by asking for general advice without having ready room?
 

DonH56

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Hi again. I have contacted several acoustic companies in my country (Poland) and I must admit I am kinda disappointed. They either want to measure ready room with already chosen and placed speakers or run a computer simulation to find the best layout for a particular room plan without any advising on its tweaking at the project stage. The first approach surprises me as I thought that a room with good acoustics is just a room with good acoustics for any speakers. Am I wrong?

One company was slightly more open for cooperation and they advised me to place roof windows symmetrically on both roof slants, behind listening position. They also advised making the room more rectangular by extending the longer wall from 6m to 6.6m.

What do you think about it? Am I expecting too much by asking for general advice without having ready room?

Asking for advice early is great! Much harder to change after the room is built... ;) However, "good acoustics" involves a lot of factors, including room dimensions and positions of speakers and listener(s).

The further you can get from having any room dimension being equal to any other (or any multiples of them) the better in terms of room modes. But, you will always have them, and for bass the usual solutions are to keep the main listening position (MLP) out of the center of the room and to use more than one subwoofer to help counter primary room modes.

Different speakers with different dispersion (radiation) patterns and different frequency response (mainly in the bass) interact differently with rooms. While most "box" speakers are probably similar, there are also dipole speakers like Magnepans and ESLs, and omnidirectional speakers, that may have different requirements for optimal rooms.
 

digitalfrost

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I would avoid integer multiples with regards to the room dimensions, if you can, going for a golden ratio is never wrong. If you build a dedicated room anyway, have you thought about building a single or double bass array? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass_array

If you have some space to waste anyway, it would be put to good use :D.
 

DVDdoug

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I've heard of the golden ratio. I'm not sure that a rectangle is ideal but I "feel like" the room should be symmetrical left-to-right...

I have contacted several acoustic companies in my country (Poland) and I must admit I am kinda disappointed.
Bummer! There has to be someone who designs (or helps to design) theaters & churches, etc. Worst case, you might have to do your own research and run your own simulation software. But an expert with practical experience would be really helpful.

The first approach surprises me as I thought that a room with good acoustics is just a room with good acoustics for any speakers. Am I wrong?
Yes, depending on your goals. I you're building a mixing/mastering studio you usually want a dead space. For listening to music for enjoyment you might want a more lively space. I've had my speakers in a "dance hall" a couple of times and to me, they sound WAY better in a large reverberant space than in my living room. These were actually "multi-purpose" rooms, maybe with a stage at one end, so they probably didn't have technically-great acoustics, but still better than my "average" living room.

They either want to measure ready room with already chosen and placed speakers
I assume you'll want to do that too after your room is built so you can treat the room and EQ. The bigger the space the more room you have to add reflecting/dispersing/absorbing panels.
 

DonH56

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My room used prime dimensions until we decided to add a bedroom in the basement and then the dimensions got trashed and I lost a third of the room volume. :( Kept the wife and kid happy, though, so a good trade. He comes to visit fairly often still despite (or maybe because of) my threats to knock out the wall and expand into his bedroom. :)
 
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youngho

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Hi!
While it tempts me with its hefty size, it is very close to square. Do you see any chances of getting something reasonable out of it? Putting speakers diagonally? Skewing one wall? Adding a partition wall and sacrificing a few square meters? Rounded or some other irregular shapes in cortners? I will hire a proffessional acoustics company when the time comes, but I do not want to ruin everything at the very beginning.

I am aiming for something like RME ADI2 DAC + Anthem STR / 2x Benchmark AHB2 + Martin Logan ESL / Triangle Signature Alpha / Dali Epicon + (optional) 2x REL T/i. This of course might (and probably will) change after auditioning some audio gear in the future, but I just want to give you a brief idea of what I am aiming for. What do you think about it? Worth trying, or is it no-go, and I should ask for rework?

I think you are probably starting with the wrong questions (for ratios, see http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/2455/?template=banner). Mine would probably include the following, in no particular order:

1. What is your overall budget for this listening room, specifically? How are you willing to split that between planning, construction upgrades, and subsequent room treatments and acoustic upgrades?
2. What are your priorities for this listening room? Does it include noise isolation from the rest of the house, or does it only matter how it sounds inside the room, regardless of how sound transmits outside the listening room? Is it intended only for audio (stereo vs multichannel), or will it need to serve other functions? Do you care about resale value in case the acoustic treatments are built into the room itself, or do the treatments need to be easily removable or modifiable in the future?
3. What are details regarding the construction of the house, like materials, stud depth, intended insulation, proximity to neighbors (in case isolation is important)?
4. How do you plan to set up the room in terms of speaker and listener position, also how important are dipole vs conventional speakers to you, since room acoustic requirements may vary, depending on these factors? For example, dipoles may benefit from diffusion placed behind them (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/listening_room.htm) but need less sidewall treatment (depending on toe-in).
5. What are your own priorities as a listener? I have a theory that listeners should consider considering and ranking individual factors in terms of individual preference (see my preliminary thoughts at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-room-reverberation-and-a-few-thoughts.16806/, but I would modify that further with the subsequent paper: https://users.aalto.fi/~ktlokki/Publs/JASMAN_vol_146_iss_5_3562_1.pdf)

This will help you figure out what's important and what you can achieve. For example, are you willing to plan ahead and pay for modeling, you could consider hiring a group like WSDG (https://wsdg.com/), which has a European office? Is your contractor is working with drywall/plasterboard and willing to do multiple layers with viscoelastic dampening, also resilient channel? Can they construct fractal or QRD diffusors? If isolation is not important, but if reverberation is, especially if you're considering multichannel, but if isolation doesn't matter at all, you could consider an ambechoic design like Boggy's MyRoom (https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1078997-myroom-acoustic-design-mark-ii.html) or possibly binary audio diffusion walls and ceiling. Are you willing to pay for multiple PSI AVAA C20 bass absorbers to help dampen room modes <120 Hz? Anyway, these sorts of questions go on and on until you figure out more specifics, in my opinion.

Young-Ho
 
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Karister

Karister

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Thanks.

1. It is hard to answer regarding my budget. Firstly, I need to build a new house and it will cost a lot. Initially, this room most likely will be empty and after some time I will be able to buy audio gear and perform room acoustics adaptation. I suppose that eventually, I will be spending around 30k USD for both acoustics treatment and audio equipment. This may vary, though. I might wait a bit more and save money if needed. I am not in rush.

2. I am not concerned about noise isolation. I usually do not listen loud. Below this room, there will be a garage and there will be no adjacent rooms to the audio room on the same floor. This room will be only for listening to music and playing video games - there will be some desk and pc as well in this room. I want stereo only - either 2.0 or 2.2 system. There will be unlimited freedom regarding placing needed diffusers, bass absorbers, etc.

3. This will be one family house, so no direct neighbors. The nearest house will be around 10m away. I am having a hard time finding construction materials that I am going to use in English. :) According to the dictionary - silicate blocks / silka blocks. The lowest points (where the wall touches the roof) of the audio room will be 1.4m and the highest (ceiling) 2.7m (can be more if needed).

4/5. I am planning to place speakers closer to the wall with the window (the one above the garage entrance) so that they play towards the room entrance. Currently, I do not have any preferences regarding speakers. I am mostly a headphones user. My current stereo system is crap. I would love to have a sound close to HiFiMAN Arya with the possibility of adding some low bass for fun. I like slightly highlighted low frequencies without being too bummy. I also love Focal Utopia for their unusual vocals clarity and sparkling but not harsh treble. They are too weak on sub-bass, though.

So, I am not going to invest in audio now or anytime soon as my current budget is focused on the house itself. I will work on audio in the future. For now, I wonder if I am able to avoid some stupid mistakes that could ruin the final result. But I am starting to think that it actually is hard to find out. It seems that without an acoustics company measuring actual room it is hard to get some universal rules. The ones that I already received are keeping symmetry in mind, avoiding square proportions, avoiding walls lower than 1.4m, and placing roof windows behind the listening position.
 

abdo123

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As long as one dimension is not more than double the others, whatever dimensions you pick are okay.

Focus on damping the room when building it. This is extremely important. You're one of the few people here who have the opportunity to build a room from scratch for audio. Don't just build it like a regular room and call it a day. No amount of foam on hard walls will correct that sin.
 
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Karister

Karister

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@abdo123 what do you mean exactly? Choosing other construction materials for walls or picking the right finishing like carpets, wood panels, paint, arrases, etc? Could you elaborate on not building it like a regular room?
 

youngho

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Sorry if I'm not very helpful or knowledgeable here.

Some firms like WSDG (https://wsdg.com/) will do pre-construction modeling and planning, including blueprints. They do have a European office, but the cost is likely to be prohibitive, in terms of the budget you laid out. I haven't been following this sort of thing, but you could always try contacting http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/ or http://www.hdacoustics.net/ to see if they'd be willing to do a pre-construction consultation.

Silicate blocks appear to be functionally similar to concrete (Silikaat). This would be very different from typical residential construction in the US, and there will be little loss of bass through the walls themselves, since it appears that you will use it for exterior and interior walls, so you're likely to need significant bass treatment (if not active, then perhaps Modex products: http://www.rpgeurope.com/products/product/allproducts.html). Do you plan to simply paint or plaster the blocks? Is it easy to mount heavy things on walls made of these blocks? What materials would be used for the ceiling/roof line?

Regarding ratios, from Toole's book (second edition):
"These concepts migrated into the audio fi eld, and certain room dimensional
ratios have been promoted as having especially desirable characteristics for
listening. In normal rooms, the benefi ts apply only to low frequencies. Bolt
(1946), who is well known for his “blob”—a graphical outline identifying recommended
room ratios—makes this clear in the accompanying, but rarely seen,
“range of validity” graph (Figure 13.5). This shows that in an 85 m3 (3000 ft3)
room, the optimum ratios are effective from about 40 to 120 Hz. This is similar
to the room in Figure 13.3, which shows that this frequency range embraces
six or seven axial resonances. This is consistent with the common experience
that above the low-bass region the regularity of standing-wave patterns is upset
by furniture, openings and protrusions in the wall surface, and so on, so that
predictions of standing wave activity outside the bass region are unreliable. In
fact, even within the low-bass region wall fl exure can introduce phase shift in
refl ected sound suffi cient to make the “acoustic” dimension at a modal frequency
substantially different from the physical dimension.
Nevertheless, efforts to solve the riddle continued, with Sepmeyer (1965),
Rettinger (1968), Louden (1971), and Bonello (1981) all making suggestions
for superior dimensional ratios or superior metrics by which to evaluate the
distribution of modes in the frequency domain. Walker (1993) proposed some
generous room ratio guidelines. All of them differ, at least subtly, in their guidance.
Driven by the apparently undeniable logic of the arguments, information
from these studies has been incorporated into international standards for listening
rooms and continues to be cited by numerous acoustical consultants as an
important starting point in listening room design.
However, more recent examinations have given less reason for optimism.
Linkwitz (1998) thought that the process of optimizing room dimensional ratios
was “highly questionable.” Cox et al. (2004b) found good agreement between
modeled and real room frequency responses of a stereo pair of loudspeakers
below about 125 Hz, but they ended their investigation by concluding that
“there does not appear to be one set of magical dimensions or positions that signifi
cantly surpass all others in performance.” Fazenda et al. (2005) investigated
subjective ratings and technical metrics, fi nding that “it follows that descriptions
of room quality according to metrics relying on modal distribution or magnitude
pressure response are seriously undermined by their lack of generality, and the
fact that they do not correlate with a subjective percept on any kind of continuous
scale.” These people seem to be saying that the acoustical performance of
rooms cannot be generalized on the basis of their dimensional ratios and that
reliably hearing superiority of a “good” one may not be possible."

Here's the Bolt diagram, in case you'd like:
Screen Shot 2021-09-09 at 2.40.37 PM.png
 
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Karister

Karister

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@youngho Thanks, that's definitely helpful. Much appreciated. Judging by this diagram, a higher room would be worth consideration. By default, the ceiling is at 2.7m. It will be made of wood. Walls will be plastered. I can also finish them with some wood or something else if needed. This will be an audio/gaming room only so there aren't many limitations. Silkaat is a very sturdy material so I will be able to mount heavy things on the wall.
 

youngho

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@youngho Thanks, that's definitely helpful. Much appreciated. Judging by this diagram, a higher room would be worth consideration. By default, the ceiling is at 2.7m. It will be made of wood. Walls will be plastered. I can also finish them with some wood or something else if needed. This will be an audio/gaming room only so there aren't many limitations. Silkaat is a very sturdy material so I will be able to mount heavy things on the wall.

Metal plate absorbers like the Modex Plate or Broadband are supposed to be among the most effective bass absorbers but best if mounted near corners. Based on what you've posted, you should be able to accommodate a number of them if you want.

You'll likely want to make the ceiling as absorptive as possible, but you'll have a number of options available to you. Since you mentioned finishing with wood, you could even consider products like microperforated (www.soundply.com) or grooved (https://topakustik.ch/en/) wood panels.

Young-Ho
 

FeddyLost

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Ask your contractor if they will be able to get needed thermal isolation if this "sound room" will be made with pillar-like structures for roof support and something like rockwool inside the walls.
If walls will be light and non-rigid (relatively), then bass will flow through them and most of issues with standing waves will not emerge.
For better understanding try to simulate FR in REW's RoomSim with different bass reflection coefficients of walls and look how it will affect raggedness of graph.
Anything higher than bass can be absorbed with light and cheap solutions, and bass is the main problem.
Please keep in mind that if you live nearby to some highway or train such solution will ruin your sound isolation also and you'll hear all the heavy crap going on outside.
 
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Karister

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This is a quiet place. ;) Only one-family houses around. Walls will be very rigid and heavy - silicate blocks are one of the sturdiest materials available. Regarding thermal isolation, I will use wool but it will be placed on the outer side of the walls. This is how you build houses here and it cannot be changed. I am able to choose finishing inside - can be wood placed on walls, plaster, or anything else. Also, I have found a company that will perform needed simulations and calculations. They will advise me on room dimensions, layout, etc soon.
 

FeddyLost

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Walls will be very rigid and heavy - silicate blocks are one of the sturdiest materials available.
Then you'll have imminent bass problems. They can be minimised with good room proportions and speakers/listener placement, but they will be.
Making bigger windows and any other openings in walls will help, also if your roof is "light", this also will prevent extreme troubles (like in concrete rectangle apartment).
 
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