New amp, curious about Onkyo TX 8470 & many questions

[looser]

Hello,

My name is Florian and I came across your forum because of this discussion.

Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DRA-800H Stereo AV Receiver. It was kindly purchased used by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs new US $599 from Amazon including Prime shipping. The front looks like any multi-channel receiver: Then you look in the back and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This made me curious, I was surprised that a "brand name"-amp/receiver is a kind of waste of money.
I am currently looking for a new amp/network receiver and I don't want to spend too much, just for average quality.

So that's my story:
I had for at least 12 years a pair of Wharfedale Diamond (almost new) powered by a Harman Kardon HK 970 (used) and I was happy.
A while ago I shot one of the woofers and I cannot get a replacement. So I was looking for a new pair of speakers and I finally got a pair of Klipsch rp-6000f ii for a good price (€ 800 instead of € 1200 a pair).

First I was shocked about the sound. Posted my problems on the Klipsch sub on Reddit, re-wired the speakers & got rid off of bi-wiring (like highs on left, lows on right speakers).
So that's better. But not ideal yet. I could return them, probably (I have to check, they were on sale). But that's a pita as they are bloody heavy. And I don't think that these are bad speakers.

One of the guys on Reddit said the 80 watts/8 ohms are not enough for these speakers and I should upgrade. KIipsch writes that they are awesome and effective and bla, but some other guy too wrote that I need more than 80 watts. Compared to the Wharfedale it sounds a bit flat sometimes. It's hard to tell what I am missing.

I was always dreaming of a HK 990, as mine lacks any digital input, and it is a powerhouse. But even used ones are expensive here in Germany. I have to say I am a HK fanboy, too.
So I came across the Onkyo, and I hope it's a better option than the Denon. I just need some HDMI in's, digital input, NO home theatre fancy schmancy stuff. I listen to stereo, also on TV and that is ok like that. The LG TV has eARC HDMI output. currently the TV (and Netflix, Amazon Prime) is connectet with the Harman amp via a banana plug and I would like to get some improvements.

Sorry for the long story, but maybe the context is helpful.

My question is:
- would the Onkyo be a solid stereo amp/network receiver for me, with sufficient power?
- I don't need all that other stuff, but my Harman just lacks some things.
For some years I have had an Onkyo Network CD Player. There are only 1 or 2 radio stations I listen to here in Germany. I might upgrade the CD player one day.

Thank you
Florian

 

[Everett T]

Hello,

My name is Florian and I came across your forum because of this discussion.

Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DRA-800H Stereo AV Receiver. It was kindly purchased used by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs new US $599 from Amazon including Prime shipping. The front looks like any multi-channel receiver: Then you look in the back and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This made me curious, I was surprised that a "brand name"-amp/receiver is a kind of waste of money.
I am currently looking for a new amp/network receiver and I don't want to spend too much, just for average quality.

So that's my story:
I had for at least 12 years a pair of Wharfedale Diamond (almost new) powered by a Harman Kardon HK 970 (used) and I was happy.
A while ago I shot one of the woofers and I cannot get a replacement. So I was looking for a new pair of speakers and I finally got a pair of Klipsch rp-6000f ii for a good price (€ 800 instead of € 1200 a pair).

First I was shocked about the sound. Posted my problems on the Klipsch sub on Reddit, re-wired the speakers & got rid off of bi-wiring (like highs on left, lows on right speakers).
So that's better. But not ideal yet. I could return them, probably (I have to check, they were on sale). But that's a pita as they are bloody heavy. And I don't think that these are bad speakers.

One of the guys on Reddit said the 80 watts/8 ohms are not enough for these speakers and I should upgrade. KIipsch writes that they are awesome and effective and bla, but some other guy too wrote that I need more than 80 watts. Compared to the Wharfedale it sounds a bit flat sometimes. It's hard to tell what I am missing.

I was always dreaming of a HK 990, as mine lacks any digital input, and it is a powerhouse. But even used ones are expensive here in Germany. I have to say I am a HK fanboy, too.
So I came across the Onkyo, and I hope it's a better option than the Denon. I just need some HDMI in's, digital input, NO home theatre fancy schmancy stuff. I listen to stereo, also on TV and that is ok like that. The LG TV has eARC HDMI output. currently the TV (and Netflix, Amazon Prime) is connectet with the Harman amp via a banana plug and I would like to get some improvements.

Sorry for the long story, but maybe the context is helpful.

My question is:
- would the Onkyo be a solid stereo amp/network receiver for me, with sufficient power?
- I don't need all that other stuff, but my Harman just lacks some things.
For some years I have had an Onkyo Network CD Player. There are only 1 or 2 radio stations I listen to here in Germany. I might upgrade the CD player one day.

Thank you
Florian

You want a 4ohm capable receiver if you listen at moderate levels as your speakers have a difficult load in the lower bass region around their tuning.

Klipsch RP-6000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-6000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Onkyo doesn't list much on their website regarding 4ohm.capable but based on their design it is probably ok (I'd call and check) You don't need more power, as you would have to double the wattage to hear a difference (and even then you probably would ever need it), you just need to make sure that your receiver can handle a 4ohm load at moderate volumes.

 

[DanielT]

Hello and welcome to ASR.

Your Harman Kardon HK 970 amplifier power: 80 watt in 8 Ohm and 120 watt in 4 Ohm:


The speakers, Klipsch rp-6000f ii: 90.1 dB sensitivity. Plus below is what its impedance curve looks like, so you can take the 80 watts into 8 Ohms for your amp with a pinch of salt. They dip down around 4 Ohms. In the area where you also need the most power and there you have your 120 watt with your Harman Kardon HK 970.

Klipsch RP-6000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-6000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

So 120 watts to power up a pair of 90.1 dB sensitive speakers. Nemas proboemas.

My question is:
- would the Onkyo be a solid stereo amp/network receiver for me, with sufficient power?
Onkyo TX 8470 has 20 watts more in 4 Ohm than the HK 970. Not a big difference.


- I don't need all that other stuff, but my Harman just lacks some things.
Not lack of amp power, the combination HK 970 + Klipsch rp-6000f ii. However, if you miss other functions with that amplifier, that's a different matter.

For some years I have had an Onkyo Network CD Player. There are only 1 or 2 radio stations I listen to here in Germany. I might upgrade the CD player one day.
Why not streamed music?

 

[looser]

oh jesus, thanks a lot for your detailed reply Fantastic!!

Where should I start... so you say it's sufficient? Because some of the Redditors say, the Klipsch are kind of "long travel, lots-of-power"-speakers, and therefore you need PÖWER even for the lower volumes, when you listen/watch TV/music less loud.

But as you write, its not like that, right? And I don't think that Harman were cheaters in the 2000's, so I assume it delivers more or less 80w/8 ohms. I just read a test of an amp and it stated lmuch ess power in real live than written in the flyer. Dunno wich model.

Something is "not ideal" (as Edd China would say lol) about the sound, something about the higher tones aren't right yet.

- I have moved them away from the wall, just some minutes ago, seems a bit better
- I have 4 sqmm wires for the high and 6 s qmm wires for the lower woofers. That should be sufficient.

In my garage (comfy place) I have some old satellites/woofer speakers and a AVR11, plus a mii thingie for wlan https://www.amazon.de/Bluetooth-dra...43952&hvtargid=pla-2281435176418&gad_source=1

So I usually listen to either my old Marantz CD player there, or I stream youtube/YT music (I am not a spotify guy). I was thinking about a used TV screen there but wifey would just kill me lol. So yes I stream, but not in the living room, only wlan/internet radio with the Onkyo CD network player (12 years old, no sw update possible). That is the other thing I would like to upgrade.

How might the Onkyo be compared to an 2000's Harman Kardon?

 

[Everett T]

oh jesus, thanks a lot for your detailed reply Fantastic!!

Where should I start... so you say it's sufficient? Because some of the Redditors say, the Klipsch are kind of "long travel, lots-of-power"-speakers, and therefore you need PÖWER even for the lower volumes, when you listen/watch TV/music less loud.

But as you write, its not like that, right? And I don't think that Harman were cheaters in the 2000's, so I assume it delivers more or less 80w/8 ohms. I just read a test of an amp and it stated lmuch ess power in real live than written in the flyer. Dunno wich model.

Something is "not ideal" (as Edd China would say lol) about the sound, something about the higher tones aren't right yet.

- I have moved them away from the wall, just some minutes ago, seems a bit better
- I have 4 sqmm wires for the high and 6 s qmm wires for the lower woofers. That should be sufficient.

In my garage (comfy place) I have some old satellites/woofer speakers and a AVR11, plus a mii thingie for wlan https://www.amazon.de/Bluetooth-dra...43952&hvtargid=pla-2281435176418&gad_source=1

So I usually listen to either my old Marantz CD player there, or I stream youtube/YT music (I am not a spotify guy). I was thinking about a used TV screen there but wifey would just kill me lol. So yes I stream, but not in the living room, only wlan/internet radio with the Onkyo CD network player (12 years old, no sw update possible). That is the other thing I would like to upgrade.

How might the Onkyo be compared to an 2000's Harman Kardon?

First off, don't bi (passive bi amping) wire your speakers, there is no benefit other than a perceived one.(There rare exceptions and that's another topic) and you are reducing the impedance way below their ratings, close to 1ohm) and will damage your speakers if your doing A+B speaker outs.

What is your budget, how far do you sit from the speakers, and what is the total room size? Here is a simple calculator to give you an idea of power needed for peak output.

Peak SPL Calculator

Your current receiver seems more than efficient/sufficient, but if you're looking for upgraded features there are a few viable options depending on those needs.

 

[looser]

You want a 4ohm capable receiver if you listen at moderate levels as your speakers have a difficult load in the lower bass region around their tuning.

Klipsch RP-6000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-6000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Onkyo doesn't list much on their website regarding 4ohm.capable but based on their design it is probably ok (I'd call and check) You don't need more power, as you would have to double the wattage to hear a difference (and even then you probably would ever need it), you just need to make sure that your receiver can handle a 4ohm load at moderate volumes.

thank you! If I understand DanielT right, the new amp must be powerful at 4 amps for "daily business loudness", correct? This is all new to me so sorry for the stupid questions.
DanielT writes that the HK970 isn't bad at all, it seems.
That is what surprised me about some Reddit replies, I remember the Harman to be a very solid amp, not a cheater at all, but not high end probably. thats why I ordered the heavy duty Klipsch as I assumed the amp has power.

Bass is not that much of a problem. I don't know how to despribe it what I am missing. Yesterday I put "The Kiss" by The Cure on the olde Onkyo Network CD Player (probably not the best around), and decibel are not a real problem:

Still, I would like a new amp/network receiver sooner or later. Mainly because the HK970 totally lacks digital input.

 

[Everett T]

thank you! If I understand DanielT right, the new amp must be powerful at 4 amps for "daily business loudness", correct? This is all new to me so sorry for the stupid questions.
DanielT writes that the HK970 isn't bad at all, it seems.
That is what surprised me about some Reddit replies, I remember the Harman to be a very solid amp, not a cheater at all, but not high end probably. thats why I ordered the heavy duty Klipsch as I assumed the amp has power.

Bass is not that much of a problem. I don't know how to despribe it what I am missing. Yesterday I put "The Kiss" by The Cure on the olde Onkyo Network CD Player (probably not the best around), and decibel are not a real problem:

View attachment 491685

Still, I would like a new amp/network receiver sooner or later. Mainly because the HK970 totally lacks digital input.

Power isn't your issue but features correct? What features are you looking for outside of a digital input? Do you have a sub or considering to add one? Is connecting a TV necessary? I would take Reddit with a grain of salt, you will get some wacky replies.

 

[voodooless]

A new amp won’t solve issues with speakers. Generally, new speakers do. But there are some ways to improve speakers without buying new ones: use EQ! And from what I’ve seen from these Klipsch speakers, they could do with a bit of EQ.

So if you really want a new amp, get something that has some EQ or room correction features.

 

[DanielT]

oh jesus, thanks a lot for your detailed reply Fantastic!!

Where should I start... so you say it's sufficient? Because some of the Redditors say, the Klipsch are kind of "long travel, lots-of-power"-speakers, and therefore you need PÖWER even for the lower volumes, when you listen/watch TV/music less loud.

But as you write, its not like that, right? And I don't think that Harman were cheaters in the 2000's, so I assume it delivers more or less 80w/8 ohms. I just read a test of an amp and it stated lmuch ess power in real live than written in the flyer. Dunno wich model.

Something is "not ideal" (as Edd China would say lol) about the sound, something about the higher tones aren't right yet.

- I have moved them away from the wall, just some minutes ago, seems a bit better
- I have 4 sqmm wires for the high and 6 s qmm wires for the lower woofers. That should be sufficient.

In my garage (comfy place) I have some old satellites/woofer speakers and a AVR11, plus a mii thingie for wlan https://www.amazon.de/Bluetooth-dra...43952&hvtargid=pla-2281435176418&gad_source=1

So I usually listen to either my old Marantz CD player there, or I stream youtube/YT music (I am not a spotify guy). I was thinking about a used TV screen there but wifey would just kill me lol. So yes I stream, but not in the living room, only wlan/internet radio with the Onkyo CD network player (12 years old, no sw update possible). That is the other thing I would like to upgrade.

How might the Onkyo be compared to an 2000's Harman Kardon?

...Redditors say...in this case mostly waffle.

Regarding speaker cables and their thickness, this can be something to start from:

Choosing the Right Speaker Wire Gauge for Optimal Performance

We discuss speaker wire gauge and how to choose the best audio cables based on your loudspeaker impedance and distance to your amplifier to achieve best performance.

www.audioholics.com

Cables then that are:

Oxygen-free copper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How might the Onkyo be compared to an 2000's Harman Kardon?
Sound-wise with your Klipsch rp-6000f ii speakers, if both amps work according to spec you won't hear any difference between them. Comparing regarding features is another matter but that's mostly what you're interested in and need.

 

[looser]

What is your opinion about tools like the "1Mii B06S+ Bluetooth 5.2 receiver, HiFi Audio Adapter + LDAC"?
I have this in my lovely garage, with a 25 years old HK AVR11 (nothing special) and some MB Quart satellite/sub speakers, +25 years old.
It took me weeks to restore the garage, now I love it, AND: the sound with that "thingie" is not bad at all. Actually it sounds better than an old CD of The Cure on the Marantz CD Player.

So I installed the Mii thingie in my living room, and high tones are better, less harsh. I moved the speakers a bit as well, and have some old granite plates under the speakers (I have them anyways...).
The overall-sound sometimes is a bit sythetic or has slightly too much bass, but it is "better somehow" (I know, great description).

Could it be that the sources, like LG-TV with banana plug, old Onkyo CD Network Receiver are probably part of the problem?
I listen to my favourite station, radioeins.de, and some tracks actually sound almost perfect.

I really apprecciate your help and input, as I learn a lot with each single post of you guys!

The Mii makes me think, that a newer, digital class g Amp/Receiver might be an (costly) upgrade to my situation.
What is you opinion on these things?
Like this one here https://www.amazon.de/WiiM-Chromeca...WQ&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGZfbmV4dA&th=1

thank you
florian

 

[DanielT]

I have tested and listen alternately between LDAC, for example when talking about radio then on this station:

Listen To The Radio | SomehowJazz

somehowjazz.com

Plus a little bit of other stuff.

Then Spotify via WiiM.

Both ways of getting input are good. WiiM has the advantage of room correction via PEQ.
LDAC plus PEQ app also works well.
(Although with the PEQ app I use, if I'm not careful it can be driven into digital clipping. But other than that, for $7 that app is good)

 

[looser]

Thank you. I am kinda old (51 years) and even an amp with more features than my old Harman is totally new to me
Instead of the Onkyo (which would be nice, indeed) I think about getting the WiiM Ultra, when it gets cheaper on black friday, or at christmas.

Would it be an improvement, when I plug in the cd-player via the WiiM with optical cable? The Harman has no digital in.
Either the Onkyo C-n7050 network player, or my old Maranz CD 63 mk2. Not sure which one plays better, probably the Marantz.
I would like to plug in the CD player (optical cable), the TV (HDMI arc) to the Wiim Ultra and that to the old Harman.

What speaks for the WiiM is that my wife wants something to stream music easily. Now, we just have the Onkyo nw player (no more firmware-updates available, too old).
So something like my cheap little Wiim from my garage might be an option.
The room correction may be useful for my new Klipsch.

 

[DanielT]

Thank you. I am kinda old (51 years) and even an amp with more features than my old Harman is totally new to me
Instead of the Onkyo (which would be nice, indeed) I think about getting the WiiM Ultra, when it gets cheaper on black friday, or at christmas.

Would it be an improvement, when I plug in the cd-player via the WiiM with optical cable? The Harman has no digital in.
Either the Onkyo C-n7050 network player, or my old Maranz CD 63 mk2. Not sure which one plays better, probably the Marantz.
I would like to plug in the CD player (optical cable), the TV (HDMI arc) to the Wiim Ultra and that to the old Harman.

What speaks for the WiiM is that my wife wants something to stream music easily. Now, we just have the Onkyo nw player (no more firmware-updates available, too old).
So something like my cheap little Wiim from my garage might be an option.
The room correction may be useful for my new Klipsch.

As far as I can see, the WiiM Ultra provides the features you are looking for:

How To Use Audio Input Ports of the WiiM Ultra

TABLE OF CONTENTS Supported Audio Format and Quality for HDMI ARC and Optical In How to Use the Line In Port How to Use the Optical In Port How to Use the HDMI ARC Port How to Use the Phono In Port How to Use Audio Input Ports with Multi-r...

faq.wiimhome.com

Hope you find a good Black Friday deal on it.

The Harman has no digital in. Which you don't need if you have a WiiM Ultra.