New 28-bit DAC coming out.

[antcollinet]

Need is not a metric belonging to a hobby.
For needs alone,yes,you're right.
A hobby is about fun and awesomeness and pushes the "what can be done" to it's limits. All hobbies,not just audio.
Covering a need is ok.But boring.And we people don't go forward by boring.

The end example,my grave will probably be 2 x 4 meters.But still I have the Khufu pyramid to compare it*

*Edit: or better still the Qin Emperor's one.

You seem to be saying:

"I know that the difference from going to more than 24/48 can't be heard by a single human being on the planet - but I want it anyway"

I find that weird: To me, it makes no sense. It has nothing to do with boredom or excitement. I'm never going to get enjoyment by changing something I know neither I nor anyone else can hear.

It is just something I can forget about to focus on things that *do* matter for this hobby. That is where I find "fun and awesomeness" Pushing things to the limit that actually make a difference.

 

[sergeauckland]

Need is not a metric belonging to a hobby.
For needs alone,yes,you're right.
A hobby is about fun and awesomeness and pushes the "what can be done" to it's limits. All hobbies,not just audio.
Covering a need is ok.But boring.And we people don't go forward by boring.

The end example,my grave will probably be 2 x 4 meters.But still I have the Khufu pyramid to compare it*

*Edit: or better still the Qin Emperor's one.

This makes no sense to me. Who cares is something is 'better' if the existing one is Good Enough? Good Enough means one doesn't need anything better, it's Good Enough!

None of my hobbies are about 'fun and awesomeness', they're about challenge and intellectual stimulus or the satisfaction of having done something difficult. Sometimes it's about doing something that to me is trivial, but that just raises the sum total of human happiness.

If that's considered boring and unawesome, it's Good Enough for me.

S.

 

[solderdude]

Why do you think this product is only intended for playback the final CD (or whatever) quality at home?
This is universal lab/studio gear.

I do not think nor suggest that.
I merely stated:

for home usage and reproducing recorded material it isn't really relevant.

 

[GXAlan]

I think the product is designed for professional use (based upon the company’s but the reason they made a new brand is that they probably are eager to sell a few to audiophiles with the budget and interest to have the best even if it is beyond the practical threshold and point of diminishing returns.

In a Facebook post, they mention having a VST to replicate some vintage DACs. I am not sure if that will be running on the unit or not.

 

[unpluggged]

replicate some vintage DACs

What's that?

 

[antcollinet]

even if it is beyond the practical threshold and point of diminishing returns.

I'm not sure people are realising just how insanely small -160db Noise is.

As an example - let's say the dac achieves this on the output (Im not sure how but lets just run with it)

The first thing that signal is going to hit is the input impedance of the pre-amp or amp - typically 10K and up. The thermal noise alone coming from that input impedance (let alone everything else) is going to be around 40dB (100x) bigger than the output noise of the DAC.

It's not just diminishing returns, it is zero returns, for multiple reasons.

 

[GXAlan]

What's that?

it was actually on LinkedIn.

John La Grou on LinkedIn: The new imersiv D-1 DAC. Shipping soon! An entirely new audio… | 16 comments

The new imersiv D-1 DAC. Shipping soon! An entirely new audio architecture that creates a 100X paradigm shift in audio performance. | 16 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

Someone mentioned the HDCD Model One and Two and this was stated by John La Grou:

“Funny story. A Nashville mastering engineer using Model 2's compared it with the D-1. The D-1 was vastly superior, but the Model 2 has a low-mid thickening quality, which adds a nice sense of "warmth" or "body" to music, especially sparse AG and vocal program. The engineer said "my clients keep coming back because of this added low-mid weight they get from our AD/DA chain." He said, "if you can emulate this coloration, we'll swap all the Model 2's with D-1's." He added, "the Model 2's are all failing and they're hard to fix, so it's good timing."

Of course, this low-mid thickening is harmonic distortion, probably from Rene's JFET-based output stage in the Model 2, or perhaps a combination of stages. So we coded a VST harmonic series generator and went to work emulating the Model 2 coloration. When the D-1 starts shipping, we should have selectable harmonic color options in the unit, with a range of "warmth" selections.”

Looking at this, it looks like the box will have this feature.

 

[salmo]

Hmm, sounds a little like Atari Jaguar with its "64-bit" console ;p

 

[Jinjuku]

Mine goes to 29. It's right there on the bits dial.

 

[boXem]

The first thing that signal is going to hit is the input impedance of the pre-amp or amp - typically 10K and up. The thermal noise alone coming from that input impedance (let alone everything else) is going to be around 40dB (100x) bigger than the output noise of the DAC.

If properly designed (i.e. not on the cheap), the impedance of the input stage has no effect on noise.

 

[antcollinet]

If properly designed (i.e. not on the cheap), the impedance of the input stage has no effect on noise.

Perhaps not if you are at your typical SNR of maybe 100 to 115dB.

A whole different ball game at 160dB (1000 times lower noise)

 

[egellings]

It looks like complete overkill for home living room listening, but could be valuable in a laboratory setting. When that LSB flips, is it even a microvolt?

 

[antcollinet]

It looks like complete overkill for home living room listening, but could be valuable in a laboratory setting. When that LSB flips, is it even a microvolt?

Assuming a 2V FS, then the LSB is about 7.5nV (0.0075 microvolts)

Thermal noise on that 10K resistor mentioned up there ^ is around 1.8uV at room temperature. Some 240 times bigger.

 

[Sokel]

You seem to be saying:

"I know that the difference from going to more than 24/48 can't be heard by a single human being on the planet - but I want it anyway"

I find that weird: To me, it makes no sense. It has nothing to do with boredom or excitement. I'm never going to get enjoyment by changing something I know neither I nor anyone else can hear.

It is just something I can forget about to focus on things that *do* matter for this hobby. That is where I find "fun and awesomeness" Pushing things to the limit that actually make a difference.

This makes no sense to me. Who cares is something is 'better' if the existing one is Good Enough? Good Enough means one doesn't need anything better, it's Good Enough!

None of my hobbies are about 'fun and awesomeness', they're about challenge and intellectual stimulus or the satisfaction of having done something difficult. Sometimes it's about doing something that to me is trivial, but that just raises the sum total of human happiness.

If that's considered boring and unawesome, it's Good Enough for me.

S.

I see 18 yo kids in my neighborhood spending 10ths of thousands to juice out the last HP of their cars or on their other hobbies,you know how it goes.
I have promised myself that my hobbies would give me the same fun as these 18 yo,either the audio or my YZ490,or...

And while the later is not nice looking when it comes to audio that changes.It either has to look nice,or has to have nice components (all my silly DIY Salas are mil spec to say the least) or measure nice regardless of their audible performance,I have done my Klippel tests and various others and I know where I stand.

Audio hobby was never about audible I think,thats only an excuse.The only real aspect is nice speaker who can reach reference levels uncompressed and a room big enough to tolerate them.And electronics to get it there.
Well,in my view these electronics need to have room to spare.A lot of room.And this thingy of this thread seem to have this room.
That's all.

After all we can't stand on two boats.We either have to praise engineering or settle with audibility.Having it both ways don't cut it, it's only useful to win the debates at the bin thread (which is as boring as it gets lately)

 

[antcollinet]

settle with audibility.

It's not settling - if what you are "settling" for is perfection.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Assuming a 2V FS, then the LSB is about 7.5nV

Thermal noise on that 10K resistor mentioned up there ^ is around 1.8uV at room temperature. Some 240 times bigger.

By the looks of it, if you want 7.5 nVrms of thermal noise in a 20 kHz BW, that would be a 0.17 ohm resistor...

 

[Sokel]

It's not settling - if what you are "settling" for is perfection.

Perfection is a lost cause since the last link are transducers stuffed in a room.
But thingies like that along with other leaps forward gives them less and less excuses not to evolve.

Evolving drags everything with it (I hope)

 

[EJ3]

The vaccine is called ASR but it does not appear to work on everyone or maybe is not applied correctly

The input clutch between what the eyes read & what the brain takes in and processes is slipping in some people.

 

[EJ3]

Totally agree. Good enough for transparency plus a little in hand is all that's ever needed.

Just because one can, doesn't mean we should. That's what has got the world into the mess it's in.

Many years ago I was taught that Quality means Good Enough.

S

And I was taught something similar: that perfection is the enemy of "good enough".

 

[antcollinet]

By the looks of it, if you want 7.5 nVrms of thermal noise in a 20 kHz BW, that would be a 0.17 ohm resistor...

Exactly. I've no idea how you design analogue electronics to support a 28 bit DAC.

It is (of course) why 24bit DACS are not achieving SNR of 144dB. They are operating at the physical limits of analogue noise.