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New 110th Anniversary Denon products with "ULTRA AL32"

watchnerd

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The anymore part isn't what I'm arguing, but we could look at Led Zeppling for stuff that is compressed and comes off as a wall of noise that in an ideal world could be corrected with AI. We could also look at the top 40 songs in most major genres, which eventually will have a few that are recognized as gems when it's all old enough for snobs to accept it, but the songs will still have compression issues.

Changing the Maybe to Probably, I'd say you're probably right: If you listen to only those genres and only to music where you don't run across this problem then it's not a problem.

The problem with Led Zeppelin is that it's like that on the final master tapes; the wall of noise has been that way for decades.

I don't see how you can 'undo' that without just inventing something that is a completely imaginary and different work of art from the original (as flawed as it may be).

The same thing is true of some early Rolling Stones.
 
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GXAlan

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RDSChicago

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I just bought one of these Denon Anniversary integrated amps and am comparing it to the Nad C298 and am going to keep one of them. The Denon seems more powerful and almost too powerful in comparison to the Purifi which is rated at more than double the wpc. I feel I can’t quite get the right volume with the Denon. It’s either too low or quickly gets unbearably loud. Kind of hard to describ. Has anyone listened to both and if so could you share your opinions?
 

VintageFlanker

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The Denon seems more powerful and almost too powerful in comparison to the Purifi which is rated at more than double the wpc
It's not. See below:
I feel I can’t quite get the right volume with the Denon. It’s either too low or quickly gets unbearably loud. Kind of hard to describ.
It is very easy to describe. You're are just experiencing the Denon PMA overly sensitive gain (more than 40dB according to HFN). Again, you cannot evaluate power by looking at the volume plot position Vs audible loudness. To my own experience with the A110, it seems to clipp at around 13-14 o'clock. Meaning it gives everything earlier and runs out of juice... just sooner. It is not "more powerful" at all.
 

RDSChicago

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That makes sense. Thanks for educating me. I am really enjoying the amp. Great DAC and does everything I need it to do with clarity and authority.
 

Sugarbubble

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That makes sense. Thanks for educating me. I am really enjoying the amp. Great DAC and does everything I need it to do with clarity and authority.
I have no problem achieving any volume I desire, from 0.0 to TURN IT DOWN dB. Maybe you have a defective unit. The volume control via the remote is smooth and linear.
 

Phorize

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@VintageFlanker I’m wondering what your feelings are about the a110 now you’ve owned it for a while. I’m considering getting one mainly to reduce my set up down to one box. The box is pretty glorious on this. Won’t hold a candle to my rme/purifi set up in terms of performance but the lure of a shiny lump of aluminium with built in dac and phono stage is tempting.
 

RDSChicago

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All I can say is I’m completely satisfied with this all in one marvel. Plenty of power and current that doubles down its output from 8 to 4 ohms, dual mono, proficient DAC and phono stage, well built, made in Japan, etc. Also, the 100th anniversary model held its value very well, so in a few years time you should be able to sell it if you want at a fairly good price. A no brainer if you’re looking for a do it all all in one.
 

hmscott

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@VintageFlanker I’m wondering what your feelings are about the a110 now you’ve owned it for a while. I’m considering getting one mainly to reduce my set up down to one box. The box is pretty glorious on this. Won’t hold a candle to my rme/purifi set up in terms of performance but the lure of a shiny lump of aluminium with built in dac and phono stage is tempting.
All I can say is I’m completely satisfied with this all in one marvel. Plenty of power and current that doubles down its output from 8 to 4 ohms, dual mono, proficient DAC and phono stage, well built, made in Japan, etc. Also, the 100th anniversary model held its value very well, so in a few years time you should be able to sell it if you want at a fairly good price. A no brainer if you’re looking for a do it all all in one.
I've been looking at the PMA-A110 since announced, but I'm not going to get one any time soon, for now I'm sticking with headphones. :)

There is an "Openbox" PMA-A110 for sale on eBay from an "Authorized" Dealer, with the lowest price I've seen...
*OPEN BOX* DENON PMA-A110 PMAA110 Integrated Amplifier W/ DAC 110TH ANNIVERSARY 883795005340 | eBay -$2999 + Free shipping...

The next lowest prices on eBay are for new units: $3344 (Japan), $4386 (EU) and the current retail price in the US is $3599.

Good luck :)
 
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VintageFlanker

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The next lowest prices on eBay are for new units: $3344 (Japan), $4386 (EU) and the current retail price many places seems fixed at $3599
Personally, I wouldn't buy this kind of product on the Bay. In EU the MSRP is 3500€ and I got mine for 3100€ at a local store in Paris. The Limited Edition pedigree is just some marketing gimmick and is kind of misleading: this amp is available at just any usual Denon retailer. Limited time of production perhaps, but nothing "rare" or "exclusive" to speak about.
@VintageFlanker I’m wondering what your feelings are about the a110 now you’ve owned it for a while
Turns out that I only kept mine for 3-4 weeks. Very good (and gorgeous) all rounder integrated but lacks power for loud listening at the end. Will probably suit for 90% of listeners but if you're seeking for let say 95dB peaks at 3M with hard-to-drive speakers (like my previous Dyn Evoke 20), it won't do the trick and may clipp with some tracks. Still excellent otherwise, except the Gain which is way too high, in addition to the 2.3V internal DAC. I had to set my ADI-2 DAC to 1.73V to get acceptable volume control and headroom and I stopped to use internal DAC for these reasons.

Subjectively speaking, I preferred my Appolon AS1200 + ADI-2 mostly because this set has way more power on tap and more precise volume adjustment. If both level-matched I hardly heard any difference, unless maybe at moderate volume where the A110 seemed to be more dynamic, with maybe some better bass control.

If you want slightly more details, you may translate my little report there: https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/post180621456.html#p180621456
 

xano

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o you think the AVC-A110 after calibration gives better performance than the PMA-A110 on 2.0 listening?
 

1200FE-8

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Measurements by Hi-Fi News.
121denon.lab1.jpg

Very good distortion figures, better SNR than 2500NE... while clearly less powerful.:confused:
I would like to make some remarks regarding the output power, sound, distortion.

I own the 2500NE with JBLL 4312SE listening Tidal all the time through Onkyo NS6170. The sound is great.

I have a 36 m2 room, and i find myself listening below 9 a clock most of the time. I use 11 a clock for no more than 4-5 minutes it is very loud and bass is like my chest will cave in.

Even if 110 is less powerfull than 2500, most of the time, people will use no more than 10 watts for normal listening. I am sorry to say this, but if the power of 110 or 2500 appears to be insufficient for some, they chose the "wrong speakers". These two amps are "enough of a powehouse". You may never need those 80 watts.

Looking at the black 8 ohm power vs distortion, the 110 behaviour at 1 watt is exceptional, and also great beyond 10 watts. I would trade my 2500NE for the 110 results from 1 to 10 watts.
If one has patience to check most Hi fi News distortion graphs of other amps they will surprisingly find amps you can count on one hand which have the 110 distortion figures. Moreover i don't think they will find any amp which produces such low distortion from a single Mosfet pair !!!!!! Even my once favourite M Levinson doesn't cut it !! Even Accuphase and Luxman use multiple mosfets or BJT per channel, go google and see inside.

Almost all amps have multiple bipolar or mosfets per channel, in order to reach great power and low distortion, but look what happens when you have multiple output BJT or mosfets per channel, Mr Arai says it, see marked in red below, "two steps" refers to two stages power amplifier, "elements" refers to BJT or mosfets:

Arai: Yes. Ever since the first UHC-MOS was adopted in 1990 for the POA-S1 project celebrating the 80th anniversary of Denon, we have consistently used this circuit system that can transmit large currents despite differences in type. The advantage is that a large current can be controlled with one circuit.

There is also a method of arranging a lot of elements as other companies are doing, but if there is a distance between each element, even if it is a short distance, there will be a time difference between the signals. Our idea is that if amplification can be done with a small area of one element, it is best.

- The base 2500NE had a differential 3-stage, but this time it is 2-stage. What are the sound quality benefits?

Arai:When the circuit has three stages, the number of places where phase rotation occurs increases accordingly, and the amount of phase compensation to stabilize it also increases. There is no effect of phase compensation within the audible band, but even outside the audible band, if the phase rotation amount is large, peaks and dips (unevenness of frequency characteristics) are generated, and the human ear perceives them as distortion and dissonance. In order to make it sound straightforward, it is better to reduce phase rotation and reduce compensation, so this time I made it two steps.

For example in the PMA SX11 the two UHC MOS are so close to each other, that i suspect phase anomalies are reduced to minimum, maybe we could say the amp speaks with let's say two voices per channel (the two MOS copper-plated). By contrast other amps speak with multiple BJT or mosfets per channel. I am inclined to believe Denon sound is more pure, more uncolored:

1659087688018.png


All other six devices on each side of the copper plated UHC MOS are there to keep the optimum electrical parameters for the UHC MOS. Audio signal goes just through the two copper plated MOS.

Kind regards,

Paul,
 

VintageFlanker

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i find myself listening below 9 a clock most of the time. I use 11 a clock for no more than 4-5 minutes it is very loud and bass is like my chest will cave in
The 2500NE (and A110 for what matters) is known for its unusually high Gain, that make any attempts to evaluate power based on knob position irrelevant at best. In fairness, that applies for any amp.

I had both my A110 or 2500NE clipping at 13 o'clock, FYI.;)
I am sorry to say this, but if the power of 110 or 2500 appears to be insufficient for some, they chose the "wrong speakers".
Nope. Plenty of good speakers are harder to drive that your JBL. Plus, you should state about what SPL at which distance you're talking about to say what is enough for you (and that wouldn't for some).
 

anmpr1

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Nope. Plenty of good speakers are harder to drive that your JBL. Plus, you should state about what SPL at which distance you're talking about to say what is enough for you (and that wouldn't for some).
The introduction and popularization of low sensitivity loudspeakers necessitates more watts. No doubt. And for home movies (cinema) watts are required, because the Death Star won't blow up without a lot of amplifier volts. Music? Bach Cello Suites or Blue Cheer? For SPL, many claim that loudspeaker distortion is the limiting factor. The late Drew Daniels (JBL Application Engineer) designed a home brewed loudspeaker:

...the power absorbed by the mid cone driver amounts to milliwatts most of the time, which helps to hold harmonic distortion to very low levels, typically well below 1% up to dangerously loud volume.

...the amplifiers... produce up to a total output of 1000 watts
, providing 600 watts for each pair of fifteen's, 200 watts for the mid and 200 watts for the horn. This represents an average of around 30 dB of headroom above normal living room listening levels, which generally range in milliwatts for these speakers. Even though this much headroom and power seem to be overkill, I assure you that is not the case.

You may wonder why it's necessary to provide a bridged 600-watt amplifier for a driver that will be operated nominally at a watt. A 20 decibel musical transient peak requires 100 times the power required by the average signal and a 30 decibel peak requires 1000 the power required by the average signal. The 600-watt output capability of the amplifier driving the midbass units represents just a bit less than 28 decibels above 1 watt of power reserve for the tracking of transients.

If you are an electrostatic or bi-polar speaker fan, you will loathe the sound of this system until you get used to it, after that you will loathe the electrostatic and bi-polar types. An analogy of the perceived effect is that this type of system (high-efficiency type) is like removing an electronic compressor from an otherwise good speaker system.

These speakers make so little distortion that you will be tempted to believe that the 120 dB sound you are listening to is only playing at 90 dB. If you find that clean sound causes your favorite rock artist to be emasculated, you can go out and get an Aphex Aural Exciter to add distortion back in so that it sounds loud again.


Daniels was a perfectionist, and certainly more tech oriented than most casual gearheads, myself included. Things vary wildly. Back in the day Julian Hirsch found that he was often clipping his Phase Linear amplifier when driving the AR LST loudspeaker, which sucked amplifier power like a deranged Dyson Animal. The more well known and popular AR3a didn't even begin to 'come alive' using AR's own sixty watt/ch integrated amplifier. That was about the minimum you'd want with those speaker, in a regular (average) sized listening room.

Compare the other popular loudspeaker from the day (still active in one of my systems, by the way). In 1974, Hirsch measured a one watt sensitivity at 96dB 'in the midrange' of the L100. At 10 watts, distortion increase was 'not significant' (Hirsch was always precise! LOL). Most distortion was in lower frequencies, which you'd expect, and in any case, today, you'd want to roll off the low end, replacing those with a sub. Julian said that you could use a 400 watt amplifier with L100, without any fear of driver damage, but not so much your inner ear.

In an average home office space, I've never observed AHB2 clip indicators flash, even when listening at louder (but comfortable) levels. So Daniels idea that you 'need' at least a thousand watts is one of those YMMV things. For his loudspeakers (sensitive as they were), and in his room (he lived in the Biltmore Estate--just kidding, but he had a very large listening room), it was different.

Another loudspeaker is connected to one of those 'tube sticking out of the top' Chinese integrated amps. 6v6 push pull, so I'm getting 8-10 watts/ch, with a lot of harmonic distortion. These full horn speakers have a (Hi Fi News measured) sensitivity of 102dB/watt. I can't say I haven't clipped the amp, because I have no way of telling for sure. But at the very low end of volume attenuation, it's about as loud as I want it. As far as all that amplifier distortion? For sure it is not as quiet as the Benchmark (up close with ear in the horns), but seated in a listening position I really don't notice any of it. Certainly not to the point that I say, "Yes, that's a tube, all right."

Today watts can be very cheap. So I guess it's better to have them and not need them, than it is to need them and not have them.
 

Sound86

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Isnt it all pointless anyway, because of threshold of hearing? I mean I do own some original hdtracks with 96 or 192khz, which are arguably no different from CD in human hearing, but over 1Mhz? Really? I smell snakeoil...
 
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