Nevermind

[gsibble]

So my LAIV Harmony GANms arrived today. They are replacing a 11 year old NAD M22.

I immediately noticed a lot of the Class D negatives were gone. The treble was not as harsh and much cleaner.

Meanwhile, as the reviews said, the soundstage and imaging were great. The details weren't quite as clear as the M22 but were more "musical" if I can put it that way. Everything sounded lovely and excellent.

That being said, I noticed it sounds duller at lower volumes than my M22, which seems odd. Ironically, I have a very high end reference headphone setup and this is similar to how it sounds. In fact, when I heard several differences between the LAIVs and the M22, I went to my headphones and each time they matched the LAIVs.

So not sure what to make of that since I frequently play at lower volumes. And not talking db, talking SPL. At higher volumes, the LAIV absolutely sings.

Any thoughts on why it might seems less lively at lower volumes?

Sorry, my setup:

- Eversolo T8
- Eversolo Z10
- XLR Balanced to LAIVs
- Revel Studio 2s with the treble set to -1

 

[Mort]

Any thoughts on why it might seems less lively at lower volumes?

That's a standard psychoacoustic response to volume.

 

[gsibble]

That's a standard psychoacoustic response to volume.

I meant compared to my M22. It's sound was much livelier at lower volumes.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I meant compared to my M22. It's sound was much livelier at lower volumes.

SO ... did you do a double-blind test with levels matched? If you didn't, your subjective impressions aren't worthwhile.

 

[DVDdoug]

You're imagining things...

Meanwhile, as the reviews said, the soundstage and imaging were great. The details weren't quite as clear as the M22 but were more "musical" if I can put it that way. Everything sounded lovely and excellent.

Amplifiers don't affect soundstage/imaging unless there is something terribly wrong and left & right are mixed to mono, or if one side is louder than the other, etc.

Floye Toole says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker.

The speaker and room acoustics have some effect, and of course your brain is involved since it's an illusion with the sound REALLY coming from the left or right speakers.

"Musical" "detail", and "clarity" aren't really defined, unless you define "clear as the lack of audible distortion". And interestingly, more distortion is sometimes described as "more detailed". My setup is musical when listening to music. Not so much when I'm listening to the news.

Audiophoolery discusses the ACTUAL characteristics of "sound quality".

Most amplifiers (most electronics, actually) are better than human hearing unless they are overdriven into distortion/clipping or if there is some audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background).

That being said, I noticed it sounds duller at lower volumes than my M22, which seems odd. Ironically

I'm not sure what that means. Amplifiers are linear so their characteristics don't change at different volumes, unless you have a Loudness Button that boosts the volume a low listening levels. You wouldn't find a loudness button on a power amplifier and they are now rare on preamps & receivers. The purpose of the loudness button is to compensate for the fact that to our ears/brain, when we turn down the volume it sounds like we've turned-down the bass more (Equal Loudness Curves).

Besides the perception of the loss of bass, of course some "quiet details" drop below audibility at low volumes.

 

[gsibble]

SO ... did you do a double-blind test with levels matched? If you didn't, your subjective impressions aren't worthwhile.

Also true. I tried to match SPL as best I could remember.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

LAIV Harmony GAN

Don’t know about this one specifically but in general, GAN amps have a high output impedance. This means their frequency response is not necessarily flat.
This could be what you are hearing.

But bear in mind, as others have said, unless your testing is properly blinded and level matched, you can’t say the differences are caused by the amp

 

[gsibble]

Don’t know about this one specifically but in general, GAN amps have a high output impedance. This means their frequency response is not necessarily flat.
This could be what you are hearing.

But bear in mind, as others have said, unless your testing is properly blinded and level matched, you can’t say the differences are caused by the amp

The only thing I changed is the power amp. I listen to music 6-8 hours a night and have for 15 years. I trust my ears.

 

[Mort]

The only thing I changed is the power amp. I listen to music 6-8 hours a night and have for 15 years. I trust my ears.

Stick around.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I trust my ears.

No, unless you are listening under truly blind conditions, you are not trusting your ears, you are trusting your ears and eyes and the preconceptions that come with them. Human ocularcentrism and bias are simply too strong and overpower our hearing unless we contrive to defeat them and isolate it. No amount of years of listening to music can change this. It sucks, I know, but them's the breaks.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

The only thing I changed is the power amp. I listen to music 6-8 hours a night and have for 15 years. I trust my ears.

Unless you are properly level matched and “blinded”, I’m sorry to say, but your listening will be hugely influenced by factors other than your ears (not just you, literally all of us).

The only way to trust your ears is to make sure you are listening only with your ears.

EDIT: @RexrothPigeon beat me to it

 

[G|force]

It's true what they said upthread. No one alive or dead has ever been immune.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I trust my ears.

I do too.

But I verify with measurements.

The treble was not as harsh and much cleaner.

That being said, I noticed it sounds duller at lower volumes than my M22

I think you've answered your own question about your perceptions of the sound here.

Put a bit of a curve on it at lower volumes, a dB or two up for bass and treble with tone controls sort of thing, see if that helps.

 

[Jim Taylor]

The only thing I changed is the power amp. I listen to music 6-8 hours a night and have for 15 years. I trust my ears.

1) echoic (auditory) memory is short-lived. Its accuracy only lasts a few seconds.

https://www.healthline.com/health/echoic-memory

2) Our hearing is controlled by bias. Bias is a heuristic function of the brain that filters our senses in order to help us survive. It can be controlled by rigid scientific protocols, but cannot be eliminated.

https://www.tomorrow.bio/post/autom...-on-heuristics-2023-06-4669970027-rationality

3) Biases are constantly in use, and they are many in number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

The end analysis is this: because of bias, we have a "feel-good" attitude towards our senses. This helps us proceed through our day (or through our life) with effectiveness combined with sufficient safety.
All of our senses - sight, touch, taste and hearing - can be fooled ....... easily. Here are some examples:

Optical: https://www.livescience.com/health/mind/32-optical-illusions-and-why-they-trick-your-brain
Auditory: https://www.hear.com/resources/hearing-loss/auditory-illusions/
Haptic (touch) illusions: http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Tactile_illusions
Taste: https://perplexingperspectives.substack.com/p/why-wine-tastes-like-more-than-just

As you can see, many of these illusions are interconnected between two or more senses. This makes our reliance on them a doubly-dangerous assessment; we think (falsely) that there is overwhelming evidence to reinforce our conviction.

There isn't. We're just being lulled by our biases.

The Scientific Method was created to avoid the dominance and reliance on bias. Measurement devices were invented to provide reliable, dispassionate (non-emotional) data about the world around us. No more reliance on voodoo, old-wives tales and anecdotes. Those are untrustworthy. This instrumental information can be trusted where our biases cannot.

 

[Imaginett]

So my LAIV Harmony GANms arrived today. They are replacing a 11 year old NAD M22.

I immediately noticed a lot of the Class D negatives were gone. The treble was not as harsh and much cleaner.

Meanwhile, as the reviews said, the soundstage and imaging were great. The details weren't quite as clear as the M22 but were more "musical" if I can put it that way. Everything sounded lovely and excellent.

That being said, I noticed it sounds duller at lower volumes than my M22, which seems odd. Ironically, I have a very high end reference headphone setup and this is similar to how it sounds. In fact, when I heard several differences between the LAIVs and the M22, I went to my headphones and each time they matched the LAIVs.

So not sure what to make of that since I frequently play at lower volumes. And not talking db, talking SPL. At higher volumes, the LAIV absolutely sings.

Any thoughts on why it might seems less lively at lower volumes?

Sorry, my setup:

- Eversolo T8
- Eversolo Z10
- XLR Balanced to LAIVs
- Revel Studio 2s with the treble set to -1

Hi there. I just got my pair this week. I get what you are saying. The sound from my speakers seems to be recessed but clear at low levels. The music really opens up at louder volume, than my previous Thor monoblocks. I can really crank up the volume without my ears bleeding and the sound is really immersive. Let’s see what if any changes occur over the course of the next few weeks. Perhaps the amps are a bit treble shy out of the box, or they have a hint of tubes.