Neutron Hifi DAC V1

[dmitrykos]

afterall who wouldn't mind having the flexibility to configure it as 20 bands of EQ and 96kHz limit vs 10 bands and 196kHz limit, which can be set with just a "flick of a switch".

Agree, why not. After quick instrumental testing of 20-bands results revealed that DAC V1 can handle 20-band PEQ up to 96 kHz and still meets tasks deadlines. There is one BUT though, if host is also trying to use inline-microphone of the headset (DAC V1 supports headset mics) then task deadlines can not be met at 96 kHz frequency and may not meet at 48 kHz if some other tasks in play, like OLED display, adjusting volume.

So to support 20-bands it can be a special DSP mode which would:
- limit PCM to 96 kHz
- disable Input capability (mic)

NConfigurator could place some warnings to inform about it though.

Also, during testing of 20-bands found out that EQ can operate together with Crossfeed, so chaining of DSP effects can be added in the future too (like in NMP), just need to double check performance limits to avoid making MCU mad due to failed task deadlines.

I don't know if @amirm is aware of this thread, but yeah it would be very cool to get your DAC measured! (I don't know if you want to get it reviewed when you've worked out the 20 band EQ vs 10 band EQ options.)

I do not mind adding special new DSP mode allowing 20-band PEQ before the review, if review mentions available DSP functionality. At least other users would know that such functionality actually exists. New functionality of course will become available via firmware update via NConfigurator (if implemented, then in Firmware Version 40 - now latest is 39).

Below are measured timing results confirming 20-band PEQ capability of DAC V1 with some additional limitations described above (large rectangle is time taken by DSP):

20-bands, 48 kHz:

20-bands, 96 kHz:

 

[CedarX]

Is Qudelix per channel EQ too?

Yes... The latest 5K FW offers multiple options to manage EQ. One of the most interesting one (IMO) is where the EQ is divided in two groups:

• A group of 10x PEQ (called "Speaker") that is specific to the Headphones/IEMs/Speaker you EQ. That group can be 10x PEQ applied to L & R or 10x L PEQ + 10x R PEQ. This is where you'll account for L/R differences. This is also where the AutoEQ is applied if you select that feature.
• A group of 10x PEQ or GEQ (called "User") that is specific to your own personal preferences. The idea is that it would be independent from the HP/IEM/Speaker you select. That group does not have an independent L/R option (a miss IMO: I would also like to be able to EQ my left ear differently from my right ear).

Based on what I've read in various forums, users appear confused by these multiple EQ options. The software has to strike this fine balance between very configurable & granular options and simplicity of use--we'll see where Neutron is going to land here.

From what I could see in the (great!) user manual, as an HP/IEM dongle, the Neutron Hifi DAC V1 software appears to offer similar PEQ features as the Qudelix 5K or T71. The 5K has many more options related to BT and battery management, and the T71 has this 8-channel capabilities (still being developed by Qudelix).

 

[Robbo99999]

Agree, why not. After quick instrumental testing of 20-bands results revealed that DAC V1 can handle 20-band PEQ up to 96 kHz and still meets tasks deadlines. There is one BUT though, if host is also trying to use inline-microphone of the headset (DAC V1 supports headset mics) then task deadlines can not be met at 96 kHz frequency and may not meet at 48 kHz if some other tasks in play, like OLED display, adjusting volume.

So to support 20-bands it can be a special DSP mode which would:
- limit PCM to 96 kHz
- disable Input capability (mic)

NConfigurator could place some warnings to inform about it though.

Also, during testing of 20-bands found out that EQ can operate together with Crossfeed, so chaining of DSP effects can be added in the future too (like in NMP), just need to double check performance limits to avoid making MCU mad due to failed task deadlines.



I do not mind adding special new DSP mode allowing 20-band PEQ before the review, if review mentions available DSP functionality. At least other users would know that such functionality actually exists. New functionality of course will become available via firmware update via NConfigurator (if implemented, then in Firmware Version 40 - now latest is 39).

Below are measured timing results confirming 20-band PEQ capability of DAC V1 with some additional limitations described above (large rectangle is time taken by DSP):

20-bands, 48 kHz:
View attachment 365273

20-bands, 96 kHz:
View attachment 365275

Awesome, very good! I think it's a good selling point that it could have independent per channel 20 band parametric EQ ability, that's somewhat unique in this space! And yes, it makes sense to make people aware to the limitations of the device when flipped to 20 band parametric option. You mention 48kHz being dodgy with mic enabled & 20 band, how about 44kHz with mic enabled & 20 band? Probably not that much different I guess in terms of how close you are to it tripping up. No, but even if you have to have the limitation of no mic & 96kHz to allow 20 band EQ then as long as it's clear to the user then that's just more useful options to the user. A lot of people would probably think above 48kHz is not useful for playback anyway, and they'd probably be the informed users that know that!

If you really want to get your DAC measured, and to be honest I'm sure there's many ASR users that would like to see it measured (including myself), then it might be best if you reach out to Amir via a PM/DM to organise to get it sent to him, along with all the info regarding 10 band / 20 band options (& limitations associated with 20 band). I'd imagine he'd be quite open to containing certain information/highlights with regards to the review, if you want certain points being highlighted re the usage. (Maybe even in terms of testing optimisation if it has a few quirks.)

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Crossfeed is supported, as well as Balance. Balance is supported on ESS chip level, e.g. it is lossless operation unlike we usually do it in software.



It is specified in the Details page (scroll to Specification):

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 Details

Neutron HiFi™ DAC V1 technical details, NConfigurator app downloads.

neutronhifi.com

Wish the best for you, Dmitry.
Already a fan of your Neutron player, second to none.
Just a suggestion, to encourage the use of your legendary player, include an Android or ios licence with every purchase, maybe, for a limited period.

 

[dmitrykos]

ou mention 48kHz being dodgy with mic enabled, how about 44kHz with mic enabled? Probably not that much different I guess in terms of how close you are to it tripping up.

The best would be to disable Mic to my view, to guarantee flawless performance. I will definitely PM Amir regarding the review once DSP advancement we discussed is ready.

 

[CedarX]

From the (excellent!) user manual, it appears to offer 2x digital filter options and individual L/R H2 & H3 THD compensation adjustments: in the ESS family, this looks very much like an ES9219 DAC/Amp…
Now for the mic ADC… using one of the Cortex M4 ADC? Another (separate) chip?

 

[mc.god]

From the (excellent!) user manual, it appears to offer 2x digital filter options and individual L/R H2 & H3 THD compensation adjustments: in the ESS family, this looks very much like an ES9219 DAC/Amp…
Now for the mic ADC… using one of the Cortex M4 ADC? Another (separate) chip?

Yes, it is the ES9219Q as described here

https://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1/details

 

[CedarX]

Yes, it is the ES9219Q as described here

https://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1/details

Tks… Missed that page!

 

[dmitrykos]

Now for the mic ADC… using one of the Cortex M4 ADC? Another (separate) chip?

Nope, the same but it is sufficient for this type of mic usage (mostly Voice) and deliver up to 48kHz sample rate.

From the (excellent!) user manual, it appears to offer 2x digital filter options and individual L/R H2 & H3 THD compensation adjustments

It is in to-do to implement support for uploading user-configured (or some presets) filters via NConfigurator, therefore number of filters can be increased with time.

 

[Robbo99999]

The best would be to disable Mic to my view, to guarantee flawless performance. I will definitely PM Amir regarding the review once DSP advancement we discussed is ready.

Cool, looking forward to it being reviewed!

 

[Alexander Gödde]

Nice to see the manufacturer here to answer questions - and react so quickly to suggestions.

I'll keep this on my radar. Not that I really need it, but it is an interesting project. Great to see more DACs with integrated DSP! There's already the Qudelix 5K, the new Fiio KA17 and a couple of their bluetooth DAC/amps, the updated Topping D50. Looks like this might become a standard, or at least frequent, feature in the next few years.

 

[KosherButcher]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but will this product work with newer USB-C iOS devices, such as the iPhone 15?

 

[dmitrykos]

DAC V1 will work on the new iOS devices with USB-C port out of the box, Apple has to follow USB standard, so no more fiddling with Apple MFi. This compatibility is described in Specification -> Compatibility: http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1/details

 

[KosherButcher]

DAC V1 will work on the new iOS devices with USB-C port out of the box, Apple has to follow USB standard, so no more fiddling with Apple MFi. This compatibility is described in Specification -> Compatibility: http://neutronhifi.com/devices/dac/v1/details

Thank you for that!

 

[Phorize]

@dmitrykos all the best for this product and kudos in particular for supporting Linux.

 

[Tatr76]

Ordered one. Have a few portable dacs, main one used Hidizs S9pro. Do I need another one probably not but love neutron player on main phone and on a repurposed one just used solely as dap.

 

[dmitrykos]

@dmitrykos all the best for this product and kudos in particular for supporting Linux.

Thank you very much! NConfigurator is based on the same platform-abstracting layer as Neutron Player & Recorder, which are known to be very portable, so supporting Linux was quite easy. Linux is becoming popular with increasing trend (https://linuxiac.com/linux-crosses-four-percent-market-share-worldwide/) therefore all developers shall consider offering apps for 3 popular PC platforms and Linux is a must.

Ordered one. Have a few portable dacs, main one used Hidizs S9pro. Do I need another one probably not but love neutron player on main phone and on a repurposed one just used solely as dap.

Thank you for supporting the project

As discussed here DAC V1 will gain more DSP functionality in coming Firmware 40 (work in progress currently):

- DSP effect chaining with such capabilities:
* Crossfeed
* Frequency Response Correction (FRC)
* Frequency Response Correction (FRC) + Crossfeed
* Equalizer (EQ), 10-bands
* Equalizer (EQ), 10-bands + Crossfeed
* Equalizer (EQ), 10-bands + Frequency Response Correction (FRC)
* Equalizer (EQ), 20-bands

- new DSP:
* Equalizer (EQ), 20-bands

It can be interesting if you are using PEQ or Crossfeed in NMP. There are other ideas to try to make DAC V1 generally fun to use.

 

[rlw6534]

I bought one also. The PEQ options and (hopefully) low power usage are important to me. No need for balanced and the extra power draw with my IEMs. Plan to use with iPhone 15 Pro...

 

[dmitrykos]

@rlw6534 I am sure you will enjoy DAC V1, thank you! DAC V1's hw & sw design is addressing power saving. The main design idea of DAC V1 was to make a very power efficient device which would not drain mobile device therefore it aggressively saves power when it is possible by throttling MCU frequency depending on output frequency, turns off audio circuit completely with all associated LDOs, Oscillators and DAC chip when no playback is active, OLED display is completely off when not used and so on.

After Firmware 40 release power consumption will be fine tuned for DSP mode too in the subsequent fw updates.

 

[kelesh]

I was also served a pop-up advertisement screen for this product on my Neutron player app. It looks promising, let's have it on Amazon and I will buy it and give it a try.