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Neutral bookshelf speakers @ $2000?

oivavoi

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Mating a 6" midrange to a small tweeter is exactly what B&W does and most agree that they are not the best designs, I was pointing out that the Sierra 2 EX does the same exact thing.

It is for that very reason that I suggested in another thread that the Ascend Luna-monitor (with a 4.5 inch woofer) might be even better, if it's made into a threeway by becing crossed over to a woofer/subwoofer from 200 or 300 hz down.

If extremely wide dispersion were the ideal target, that would make the BMR the king under 2k.

Reading the measurements at Audioholics just now, I would be inclined to say that it indeed is.

After hearing a few Revel and KEF designs, I can personally say that the tradeoff is worth it. I think many people believe that you want the widest dispersion possible, ie omnidirectional, but that would end up having a flat in-room response and sound too bright. If this were the ideal, then I agree the BMR would pretty much be the best speaker around. I think the point-source quality that a properly designed waveguide creates is a more natural sound personally.

I've heard my fair share of horns and waveguides as well, including Revels. I've also heard a several omnis, wide-dispersion box speakers, etc. I would say it like this: They present the music in a different way. Both things have their advantages. Over time, though, I tend to perceive wide dispersion speakers as more natural - as long as I listen in the relative near-field and thus experience the clarity of direct sound with the envelopment I get from lateral reflections.
 
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echopraxia

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I’ll just add that the B&W to Ascend comparison is strange, because I’ve owned a few B&W products (bookshelf and tower), and they sound absolutely nothing like the Ascend Sierra 2EX. I’ve since sold all my B&W speakers hearing how much amazingly better the Ascends are, side by side (which is not surprising from the measurements).

Independent of how they’re built, the Ascend Sierra 2EX measure (and subjectively sound) fantastically good, and the B&W speakers I’ve had measure relatively poorly.

The B&W speakers sounded great when I didn’t compare extensively to other better speakers with bass controlled (so differences in bass extension don’t dominate the subjective impression), but now I know better.

Ascend and KEF sound totally different from B&W. Both being extremely neutral, Ascend and KEF sound surprisingly similar to my ear except for the lesser capability from KEF to fill the whole room uniformly at off-axis angles. I’ll be buying an R3 partly because it does sound so similar to the 2EX, but with more bass capability (and because in the room it’s going in ultimately, I don’t need wide dispersion).
 

echopraxia

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Very good points!

I have never heard the Ascend speakers, but they get consistently glowing user reviews, and the measurements are excellent. I checked out their website now, and they have many interesting offerings. I think an interesting option would be to get a pair of the new Sierra Luna mini-monitors, which have a raal tweeter + 4.5 inch woofer, which probably achieves even wider and more even dispersion in the crossover region than the Towers. Then place these mini-monitros on top of a tall matching suboowfer/woofer box, angle them slightly backwards, and do the crossover around 300 hz. If the woofer is placed on the bottom close to the floor one avoids the floor bounce suck-out around 150/200 hz as well. I think the result could turn out to be pretty, pretty good.

Oh, this reminds me: you should call Ascend and ask about their “Luna Duo”! It’s not on their website yet, but I believe they’re in production, and a few people have them already and love them. The Luna Duo is the same as the regular Luna, but with an extra 4.5” mid woofer. This may be very close to what you’re looking for, if the price/size is in range.

Though, I believe it’s not a 3-way like the towers are. It would be interesting if they made a 3-way with a smaller midrange, though I wonder if that would compromise SPL capabilities vs what the tower is currently capable of.

That said, at least from measurements and personal listening, I can’t say I can find any flaw in the directivity as it is with the 5.5” midrange. But that’s not to say they could make it even better, I guess.
 

aarons915

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It is for that very reason that I suggested in another thread that the Ascend Luna-monitor (with a 4.5 inch woofer) might be even better, if it's made into a threeway by becing crossed over to a woofer/subwoofer from 200 or 300 hz down.

I asked Dave in a thread if the Luna can handle an 80Hz 2nd order high pass at my listening levels (85db max) and he said it would be no problem so I agree that the Luna might be a better option as long as you can integrate a couple subs and don't listen extremely loud. The Sierra towers seem to be a very good design as well, I wish we could see the Spins of both to compare.

I've heard my fair share of horns and waveguides as well, including Revels. I've also heard a several omnis, wide-dispersion box speakers, etc. I would say it like this: They present the music in a different way. Both things have their advantages. Over time, though, I tend to perceive wide dispersion speakers as more natural - as long as I listen in the relative near-field and thus experience the clarity of direct sound with the envelopment I get from lateral reflections.

I've said before it could just be a matter of room size. In my small room, controlled directivity speakers seem to sound great while the wide dispersion speakers are a bit overpowering, I'm guessing due to the increased reflections. My preferences might be the opposite in a larger room.
 

jhaider

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This has been a very interesting discussion. I think the problem with many of the recommendations is that they employ wave guides to achieve even directivity.

Every "baffle" is a "waveguide," so you're basing your argument on a false premise.

I think the ultimate speaker for home use (assuming box speaker style) would look something like this: small tweeter (1/2 inch?), crossed over to a small midrange (3 inch?) at a point where directivities match, crossed over to a six-inch woofer (for example)... I'm not sure if there are any such speakers commercially available.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/bookshelf/nht-c3-bookshelf-speaker-review/
 

aarons915

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I’ll just add that the B&W to Ascend comparison is strange, because I’ve owned a few B&W products (bookshelf and tower), and they sound absolutely nothing like the Ascend Sierra 2EX. I’ve since sold all my B&W speakers hearing how much amazingly better the Ascends are, side by side (which is not surprising from the measurements).

Ascend and KEF sound totally different from B&W. Both being extremely neutral, Ascend and KEF sound surprisingly similar to my ear except for the lesser capability from KEF to fill the whole room uniformly at off-axis angles. I’ll be buying an R3 partly because it does sound so similar to the 2EX, but with more bass capability (and because in the room it’s going in ultimately, I don’t need wide dispersion).

I was only comparing the mating of a 6" midrange to a wide dispersion tweeter and the directivity mismatch it creates, I would fully expect the Sierra 2 EX to beat pretty much any B&W in a listening test.

Once you get some time with them, your thoughts on the R3 vs Sierra 2 EX would be interesting. I would think the R3 wouldn't be as detailed and may be laid back in comparison but that is based on hearing them in a different room than mine.
 

oivavoi

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mssngpeces

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This thread is very interesting!

One thing I always wondered is the effect of the "improved crossover" of the Buchardt S400 Signature Edition.
Would it have any impact on how the speaker measures? Would it be audible?
(see: https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/s400-black-oak)

Buchardt S400 Signature Edition :
Whats changed on the Signature Edition?
Improved Crossover: The Signature is equipped with an High-End crossover made by the Danish Jantzen Audio team. We use Superior caps for the tweeter network and Cross caps for the woofer network. All inductors are baked air coils for low distortion. Resistors are Superres 1% tolerance.
Internal Silver wires with teflon isolation.

VS standard Buchardt S400 :
Should you ever peak inside the S400, you'll be greeted with parts that you won't typically find in a retail product at this price point. Metallized caps instead of the usual cheap electrolytic caps. Copper coils instead of iron. We didn't go excessive just for the sake of it. We budgeted our money towards the best component where it matters the most.
 

maty

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Only € 750 more, too much I think. Many of the expensive speakers mentioned here and in other threads use crossovers with components that are not at the price level. If I knew the values I would do the calculation but...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-by-danny-richie.8840/post-244024


Updated:

You can see the crossovers of a few speakers, with images optimized by me.

Free measuring and testing services
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156605.0

I read that Buchardt uses cheap tweeters. Years ago, when KEF sold the KEF Q100 coaxial drivers separately first and then only as a replacement to avoid a DIY fever with them, they cost about $ 170 each! I can not find the page with the price.
 
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MSNWatch

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This thread is very interesting!

One thing I always wondered is the effect of the "improved crossover" of the Buchardt S400 Signature Edition.
Would it have any impact on how the speaker measures? Would it be audible?
(see: https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/s400-black-oak)

Buchardt S400 Signature Edition :


VS standard Buchardt S400 :
No change. Save your money. Disappointed actually at Buchardt for trying to appeal to the subjectivist tweako audience.
 

maty

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https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1264467-buchardt-audio-s400.html

-> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13975847

[ It was not like I read it as an attack or anything We are pretty clear under the description of the S400 that its a very cheap tweeter we use. Its an 19mm dome tweeter, its pretty simple to manufacturer such tweeter at next to no cost. But that do no meant that its bad. We even had the beryllium Satori tweeter in the lineup for this task, this cheap 19mm just performed way better for the application we needed in this case Our waveguide is an casted thick aluminium one, the tooling for making this cast mold was freaking expensive! But we wanted this waveguide/tweeter design to be used in a lot of products in the future, so that should make up for that expense in the end hopefully. And we are also applying for a patent for that specific design as well. As for the products we are working on at the moment... ]
 

maty

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Buchardt-Audio S300 MkII € 890

[Polish] http://highfidelity.pl/@main-2992&lang=

Crossover, optimized

Buchardt-S300-MKII-crossover.jpg



https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/s300-white

IMG_4473.jpg
 

napilopez

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On directivity, I don't think we should take for granted that wide dispersion is always better - directivity is perhaps the area individual preferences most come into play (also contingent upon your room).

From my recollection seems most people prefer a wide directivity design (I certainly do), but the research also makes it pretty clear that some people prefer narrow directivity, especially when it comes to music production. From Toole's book, section 7.5, this referred to a test performed with professional engineers:

In the control room, though, only about half of them felt that they could produce recordings with wide-dispersion loudspeakers. So, most of these professionals liked room reflections for recreational listening and about half of them thought that they could mix with wide-dispersion loudspeakers and the lateral reflections that resulted from them. Clearly there are individual differences.

This relates to how we should deal with sidewall reflections as well. There is some room for preference and room-matching here.


Back to the Buchardts, as someone else noted, its big crossover dip comes from the floor reflection. From my understanding, this reflection has perhaps the smallest influence on our perception of sound quality. Posting the reflections curves again for reference:

fig8.png


From section of 7.4.7 of the ubiquitous book:

Very early in my explorations of loudspeaker/ room interactions I took note of the measurable effect of the floor reflection in steady-state room curves. It seemed like a problem that needed attention, so I devoted some time to modifying loudspeakers to minimize it, and followed through with subjective evaluations. I cannot claim to have been exhaustive, but I soon became frustrated when the curves looked better but the sound seemed not to have changed very much.

He elaborates further in that section, noting that Linkwitz found the floor reflection is "not necessarily audible" on music, and one study suggested removing the reflections altogether has a detrimental effect. It seems we've adapted to largely ignore floor reflections because it's always present in our lives.

This isn't to say that the floor reflections shouldn't be optimized. They presumably impact the early reflections spins for a reason, and it seems it's a topic that merits further research. But it does seem like if the Buchardt's crossover dip is emerging from floor reflections, it is likely not as much of a problem as it might seem.

On the other hand, ceiling reflections are problematic. While sidewall reflections tend to contribute to spaciousness, ceiling reflections tend to be perceived as timbre changes (section 7.6.5.1) due to spectral differences, which is not good.

If Buchardt decided to sacrifice floor reflections for better ceiling reflections - and indeed, its ceiling curve looks almost as good as its sidewall curve - this seems a reasonable choice.

Edit: That said, I have heard of some research suggesting the contrary. It seems floor reflections merit some more research. It seems to me like wide horizontal directivity, narrow vertical directivity is good on non-coincident designs.
 
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Daverz

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Back to the Buchardts, as someone else noted, its big crossover dip comes from the floor reflection.

Would they be able to get rid of the floor bounce with their forthcoming DSP designs?
 

dc655321

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as someone else noted, its big crossover dip comes from the floor reflection.

Where are those measurements from?
That looks a lot more sinister than simple "floor bounce" (there is more going on then the simple geometry of emitter/boundary/receiver).
 

napilopez

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Where are those measurements from?
That looks a lot more sinister than simple "floor bounce" (there is more going on then the simple geometry of emitter/boundary/receiver).

Those are buchardt's own publicly posted measurements, available here. But AFAIK those are the anechoic measurements. In other words, that's not the sound after the floor bounce, but rather the off-axis sound below the speaker. It's not unusual to see big dips like that on the vertical plane.

It's unusual to see a manufacturer separate the early reflections graphs this way, but presumably, Buchardt is using the average of 20, 30, and 40 degrees below the listening axis, as those are the angles used for the floor portion of the early reflections curve.
 

echopraxia

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I recently bought KEF R3's, and have just posted results of a blind listening comparison to my Ascend Sierra 2-EX here (not listened to by me, but an unbiased 3rd party):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...-listening-results-informal.html#post58765180

They're both fantastic speakers, but there is a clear winner, at least from this blind test. Check out the bottom of the page and expand the 'spoiler' section if you want to jump to the conclusion, otherwise you may find the comments from the listener explaining each speaker preference to be interesting as well.
 

oivavoi

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I recently bought KEF R3's, and have just posted results of a blind listening comparison to my Ascend Sierra 2-EX here (not listened to by me, but an unbiased 3rd party):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...-listening-results-informal.html#post58765180

They're both fantastic speakers, but there is a clear winner, at least from this blind test. Check out the bottom of the page and expand the 'spoiler' section if you want to jump to the conclusion, otherwise you may find the comments from the listener explaining each speaker preference to be interesting as well.

This is very interesting! Thanks for posting!

Ok, spoiler alert:
This goes back to the whole discussion on directivity and dispersion etc. It's probably the case that the KEF has more controlled dispersion. But the Ascend one probably has wider dispersion. In almost all listening tests I know of, wide dispersion is something people tend to like. I would think that goes a long way of explaining why the Ascend speaker won so resolutely. Does it matter that the Ascend has a Raal tweeter, which is assumed to be very good? Or that the Kef tweeter is mounted coaxially in what becomes a waveguide, which may affect the sound in different ways? Difficult to say.
 

maty

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To listen to music wit he KEF 5.25" coaxial speaker I think is better idea without the second speaker, the woofer. Cut the coaxial about 110 Hz and two subwoofers with adjustable phase (not only 0º or 180º).

I like very much the graphs of Ascend Sierra loudspeakers. If you live in NA is a very good choice. In EU -> expensive shipping + customs + VAT = €€€

You know, I have a modded KEF Q100 with only 5.25" coaxial an front bass-reflex. The best sound is not in the axis.


BTW, Ascend Sierra 2EX measurements / graphs? http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2EX/srm2exmeas.html

Beautiful graphs and... minimum impedance of 6 Ohms.

I LOVE the cumulative spectral decay -> in a blind purchase is my choice without any doubt!

CSD.gif


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eo-speaker-measurements-by-danny-richie.8840/
 
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