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Neutral bookshelf speakers @ $2000?

echopraxia

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Yes, and in addition to making sure the listener truly can’t tell which speaker they’re listening to via other cues (like audible position in the room, or sight of course), it’s also quite important that between each song test, you randomize which speaker you call “A” and which you call “B” to the listener. Otherwise, our brain (even subconsciously) will start forming a preferential bias that gets carried over from one song to the next.

Not shuffling A vs B label to the listener isn’t as bad as making the test “sighted”, but it ruins the statistical power of the test by making the whole test (no matter how many songs you have) no more statistically significant than if you had tested just a single song. By “resetting” the assignment of A vs B via random coin toss between each song (for example to decide which speaker to test first, then call the first speaker “A“ for that test), you assure that each subsequent song test is a new independent sample, which is very important and powerful.
 

JohnBooty

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If you're in America, I would also recommend to look at the Philharmonic BMR monitor.

Link (with meausurements): http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

Edit: I know remember Phil was'nt doing well a couple of months ago. Don't know if he is still doing speaker work.

Do you mean Dennis Murphy, the designer and proprietor? He definitely wasn't doing well earlier this year, by his own account: https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...elf-speaker-review.113725/page-3#post-1304784

The positive news, though, is that he was at the Capital Audiofest this past weekend and he seemed in high spirits! I was able to meet him outside of Salk's room, shake his hand, and chat briefly with him. I of course wanted to ask how his health was faring, but figured that would have been an awfully forward question for him to hear from a stranger he'd met thirty seconds prior. So I simply told him it was an honor to meet him and wished him well.

One of the true talents of our hobby/industry and by all indications a wonderful man.
 
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sfdoddsy

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The BMRs are available as a kit through Meniscus.
 
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veeceem

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Any suggestions for bookshelf speakers which can be placed close to the wall? I just realized KEF R3 cant be placed close to wall >.< Though they sound superb :'(
 

maty

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You know, rear bass-reflex.

KEF LS50 needs about 90 cm to the three walls to sound proper. My modded KEF Q100 is front bass-reflex and it can be near the back wall, as they are, playing in near field, although they also sound great when I hear them further, even better. Well, now they have depth in near field too thanks to add delay from JRiver MC, PEQ 64-bit, and in mid/far field too.

KEF LS50W, thanks to the internal DSP is much less problematic.
 
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echopraxia

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Any suggestions for bookshelf speakers which can be placed close to the wall? I just realized KEF R3 cant be placed close to wall >.< Though they sound superb :'(

You might consider front-ported speakers then. The Neumann KH120A is one such example in your price range which may have some of the best spin measurements of any our there.

BTW I recently blind tested KEF R3 against the slightly cheaper Ascend Sierra 2EX, and the KEF lost pretty definitively. Both have excellent published spin measurements, but there’s evidence that KEF isn’t entirely honest about the R3’s measurements also.

To further reinforce that, my Neumann KH120A’s just recently arrived, and their sound quality so far seems to be a league beyond what my R3 sounded like, to my ears so far. That shouldn’t be the case if the R3 measure as well as their white paper suggests, but apparently both the Neumanns and KEF R3’s have independent measurements published, and Neumanns match up almost exactly while the KEF R3’s independent measurements look much worse than the graphs in their white paper marketing materials.

The Neumann KH120A are front-ported and so may work out very well for you. One other options to consider as well is the Ascend Sierra Luna or Luna Duo (the latter is not listed on their website, but is for sale I believe via phone order) which is also front ported and specifically designed for be positioned very near walls.

The advantage of these Ascend’s primarily is due to their ribbon tweeter with unusually exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion patterns. I have several of their speakers and they are amazing not just for critical listening but also background or party music speakers, because they do such an incredible job of filling the room uniformly with music. They’re practically omni-directional; no matter where you listen from in the room, it sounds almost exactly the same. In contrast, while I am in love with these Neumanns, they only sound best when you’re sitting just in the perfect listening position. That’s fine with me though, as they serve the role of computer speakers. They are also impressively compact, BTW.

If these two front-ported speakers do interest you (or even the Neumann vs KEF R3), be aware that I am going to be doing another blind test soon, comparing the Neumann KH120A’s against the Ascend Sierra 2EX. I can’t compare directly against the KEF R3’s since I’ve already returned them, but if the Neumanns are even on par with the Sierra 2EX in the blind test, that would confirm my (subjective) initial impressions that the Neumanns are a league beyond the sound quality of the KEF R3’s.
 

Ron Texas

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MY LS50's are 14" from the front wall and sound fine. They are used with a sub and the mains are highpassed, down 6db @ 71 hz.

They are on sale for $900 at KEF direct.
 
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veeceem

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@echopraxia would love ro hear from you. Unfortunately, I already purchase DAC/pre+amp (cant return), so I prefer the non-powered speakers:'(
Only if I learnt of neumann sooner
 

aarons915

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Any suggestions for bookshelf speakers which can be placed close to the wall? I just realized KEF R3 cant be placed close to wall >.< Though they sound superb :'(

I'm sure the R3 comes with a port plug which would make placement close to a wall no problem.
 

q3cpma

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I wouldn't say "no problem". From what I understand, as the frequency goes down and waves become larger than the box's largest dimension (or is it depth?), the driver becomes omnidirectional or almost; this is what those cardioid directivity speakers are supposed to solve.
Even the manual for the (sealed) Neumann KH310 states "Avoid positioning the loudspeaker at a distance “dwall” of 0.8 to 2 m (2' 6" to 6') from the wall."
 

maty

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KEF R3 has a problem: very good 5.25" coaxial and... woofer -> 3-ways. I have always thought it is more logical: KEF Q100, KEF Q150, KEF R100 or KEF LS50 with one or, better, two subwoofers. And the bass-reflex closed then.

I have an old Big 3-ways (woofer of 27 cm, about 10.6") with rear bass-reflex and the little coaxial sounds much better with music, much better, without any discussion. Of course, very good recordings with high DR, usually with acoustic instruments. Even the orchestral mass sounds better, you have to hear it to believe it!

PS: KEF 6.5" coaxial sounds as traditional 2-ways, not as a very good coaxial.
 
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echopraxia

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@maty could you elaborate a bit more? Why is adding a woofer to a good coaxial a 'problem'?

The main problem I heard from the KEF R3 when comparing against the Sierra 2EX was a small but audible dip in the mids, slightly more spiky (less linear/flat) treble, and much narrower 'room-filling' sound-stage (presumably due to the narrow dispersion). These were only apparent as a problem when comparing against the Ascend Sierra 2EX in recent short term memory though, because otherwise they are still excellent speakers, even though it seems you can do better at this price range.
 

maty

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The problem is the integration of the two speakers, at least it is what I interpret from the graphs. Something was not done well or maybe it is very difficult to do well with a coaxial with such dispersion. They have improved with respect to the KEF R300 but ...

By the way, Zvu devised a new crossover for the R300 and clearly improved the measurements, so maybe the R3 filter could be improved too.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/324975-kef-r300-playground-measurements-raw-drivers.html
 

maty

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Ascend Sierra 2EX is rear bass-reflex too. Distance to the walls?
 

echopraxia

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Ascend Sierra 2EX is rear bass-reflex too. Distance to the walls?
Yes, so it seems OP will probably want to avoid any rear bass-reflex speaker design given the constraint where it needs to be placed very near the wall. That's why I mentioned it might be worth checking out the Ascend Sierra Luna and Ascend Sierra Luna Duo (both front-slotted speakers) as potential options. These will need a subwoofer IMO (though in my opinion, so do all speakers that don't extend flat to 20hz).
 

napilopez

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Any suggestions for bookshelf speakers which can be placed close to the wall? I just realized KEF R3 cant be placed close to wall >.< Though they sound superb :'(

I'm sure the R3 comes with a port plug which would make placement close to a wall no problem.

I wouldn't say "no problem". From what I understand, as the frequency goes down and waves become larger than the box's largest dimension (or is it depth?), the driver becomes omnidirectional or almost; this is what those cardioid directivity speakers are supposed to solve.
Even the manual for the (sealed) Neumann KH310 states "Avoid positioning the loudspeaker at a distance “dwall” of 0.8 to 2 m (2' 6" to 6') from the wall."

The KEF R3 can be placed next to a wall just fine. It actually comes with a 2-part port plug, which allows you to to customize the bass response quite a bit.

It's a bit of a misconception that speakers shouldn't be placed closed to a front wall. Note how Neumann says to avoid distances of 0.8 to 2 m (2' 6" to 6') Genelec says something similar. At this distance theres a cancellation that tends to be more audible. I had the R3 about 1-2 feet in my own place(my wall is uneven) and it sounded great. I've never felt pulling the speakers further from the wall in my own home sounded better.

You'll have to experiment. But as long as it's not less than a few inches, I bet you'll be fine.



I also think the R3 sounds noticeably better than the LS50(W), sub or not. But that's just me.
 

echopraxia

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I also think the R3 sounds noticeably better than the LS50(W), sub or not. But that's just me.

Not just you. That was my in-store listening impression as well. IMO it was the best sounding speaker in the $2k in that price range in that store. That, combined with what looked like excellent measurements, is why I chose the R3 (and also why the blind test results surprised me).
 

maty

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The KEF R3 can be placed next to a wall just fine. It actually comes with a 2-part port plug, which allows you to to customize the bass response quite a bit...

With a good minimum-phase PEQ you can modify the low frequency response of the R3 closed. At LF human ear admits more distortion -> you can add/substract more dB than at MF/HF.
 

maty

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Look at only the LF, with or without foam: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hread-on-audio-product-sales.3118/post-263078

index.php
 
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Ron Texas

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Placing a speaker with a rear port near a wall either plug the port or use equalization (preferred).
 
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