Neumann KH80/KH750 + Allo Digione Volume control advice

[philsimm]

Hi guys,

Long term lurker and first time poster here so hello from an ASR newb!!

My current 2 channel domestic setup consists of 2 x KH80's and 1 x KH750 with my source an etherneted RPI 4/Allo Digione Hat running Volumio going BNC out directly into the KH750 for it to do its DSP magic in conjunction with the KH80's.

My question is, given that the digital out of the Allo is fixed volume and the only way to attenuate the output going to the KH750 is via the software control in Volumio, (I'm under the assumption that reducing software volume upstream is potentially detrimental to bit-perfect playback) Feel free to tell my assumptions are wrong but if not, is there a more transparent, less compromised and higher quality solution to control the volume using a hardware volume controller/signal attenuator prior to the signal hitting the KH750?

I could theoretically insert something like a Mackie Big Knob between the analogue outs of the KH750 and the analogue ins of the KH80's but that would only control the volume of the KH80's and not the KH750s which defeats the purpose.

One solution is to insert a DAC/digital preamp (RME ADI for instance) between the BNC out of the Digione ad go into the analogue ins of the KH750 but I don't need the DAC part as I'm using the ones built into the speakers and am definitely not keen on increasing the number of digital > analogue conversions taking place.

I hope all this makes sense!!

Thank for reading.

Phil

 

[Pritaudio]

same problem

 

[TimW]

I was looking for something like this for a while but decided I didn't need it. The TC Electronic BMC-2 is like a digital version of the Big Knob. You could also use a miniDSP device like the SHD, SHD studio, OpenDRC-DI, or the upcoming Flex digital.

 

[somebodyelse]

Forget about "bit perfect" - your KH750 and KH80 use DSP so the bits are already being altered. So long as Volumio haven't messed up the volume control implementation the software volume is likely to be better than the analog alternatives. If you're worried about the reduce effective bit depth because of the attenuation, remember that when the 'reduced volume' analog hits the KH750 inputs and goes through the ADC it will also have reduced bit depth because its volume is low relative to full scale.
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/guest-post-why-we-should-use-software.html

If you can code you could look at the Sennheiser Sound Control protocol that Neumann use in these speakers. It looks like you should be able to control volume that way.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...all-analog-neumann-monitors.6415/post-1094702

 

[DJBonoBobo]

If you can code you could look at the Sennheiser Sound Control protocol that Neumann use in these speakers. It looks like you should be able to control volume that way.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...all-analog-neumann-monitors.6415/post-1094702

It is possible to change volume with the Neumann.control iPad-App or with the MA1-software (probably even without a MA1 but haven´t checked). It is not very practical though.

I use a RME UCX II for digital volume control (both KH750 simultaniously), but it seems overkill to use one of these expensive devices for that purpose only (i don´t think it has an audible advantage).

 

[FrantzM]

As a matter of ergonomics, I'd avise to continue the search for physical volume control. It's one of those things. It makes no sense to always have to pull a screen to perform such a normal and repeated task.
Sorry.. aside from this. IDK what would be the solution.

Peace

 

[somebodyelse]

It is possible to change volume with the Neumann.control iPad-App or with the MA1-software (probably even without a MA1 but haven´t checked). It is not very practical though.

That pretty much confirms it's possible then - thanks. You 'just' need to write the code to make it practical. I've suggested an ESP32 based wifi remote before, with a rotary encoder for those who prefer it to buttons, but you could equally do something to run on the Pi in this case.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

That pretty much confirms it's possible then - thanks. You 'just' need to write the code to make it practical. I've suggested an ESP32 based wifi remote before, with a rotary encoder for those who prefer it to buttons, but you could equally do something to run on the Pi in this case.

Yes, I think it is possible theoretically. But even though the Neumann software is usable, at the moment i would not trust such a solution to be as "foolprof", reliable and safe a volume control should be. Personally i agree with @FrantzM that a physical device is much better. I hope Neumann provides something like the GLM volume control some day, that would be great. But i think they need to work a bit more on the reliability of their software.

 

[somebodyelse]

Yes, I think it is possible theoretically. But even though the Neumann software is usable, at the moment i would not trust such a solution to be as "foolprof", reliable and safe a volume control should be. Personally i agree with @FrantzM that a physical device is much better. I hope Neumann provides something like the GLM volume control some day, that would be great. But i think they need to work a bit more on the reliability of their software.

Which bit is unreliable? If it's the iPad app or MA-1 software it doesn't affect this proposal because it would be independent of them, talking directly to the speaker(s). If you mean it's the firmware in the speakers that's unreliable that's a much bigger problem. The WiFi remove would be a physical device much like the GLM volume control - I just wouldn't wait for Neumann to make it. I once came close to getting a pair of KH80s but was put off because of the iPad-only software. If I'd known about the control protocol at the time I would probably have bought them and built the remote by now. The MA-1 didn't exist at the time, and isn't much more use for a linux user anyway.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Which bit is unreliable? If it's the iPad app or MA-1 software it doesn't affect this proposal because it would be independent of them, talking directly to the speaker(s). If you mean it's the firmware in the speakers that's unreliable that's a much bigger problem. The WiFi remove would be a physical device much like the GLM volume control - I just wouldn't wait for Neumann to make it. I once came close to getting a pair of KH80s but was put off because of the iPad-only software. If I'd known about the control protocol at the time I would probably have bought them and built the remote by now. The MA-1 didn't exist at the time, and isn't much more use for a linux user anyway.

I don't know, I don't have any special knowledge about it. I was just speaking from the experience of a user. I mean, for example, that when you start the MA1 program sometimes it does not always find all the speakers directly. I then have to start the program one or two more times. Or that I can save setups, but it has never worked that I could load a setup again (speakers not found). Or that the program sometimes runs a bit slow and changes are not transferred to the speakers very quickly. That's all no big problem for the purpose of the program, but for volume control it would bother me. I would also be afraid that it might not always work right away, which could be a safety risk. It is of course possible that this is not due to the firmware and you could program a very nice remote control app. That would make me very happy. But based on experience, I'm just skeptical.

 

[snapcrackle]

Hi guys,

Long term lurker and first time poster here so hello from an ASR newb!!

My current 2 channel domestic setup consists of 2 x KH80's and 1 x KH750 with my source an etherneted RPI 4/Allo Digione Hat running Volumio going BNC out directly into the KH750 for it to do its DSP magic in conjunction with the KH80's.

My question is, given that the digital out of the Allo is fixed volume and the only way to attenuate the output going to the KH750 is via the software control in Volumio, (I'm under the assumption that reducing software volume upstream is potentially detrimental to bit-perfect playback) Feel free to tell my assumptions are wrong but if not...

Thank for reading.

Phil

See my post here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-in-a-negative-way.31394/page-2#post-1111438

I am using the Volumio software volume control and it seems that it does not affect sound quality generally speaking.

My source is the Pro-Ject Streambox Ultra - and for extra convenience I have purchased a little plastic remote control allowing me to adjust the volume without the need to keep opening my iPhone or iPad.. (the remote control simulates a keyboard, good stuff).

 

[Maxjoseph]

I've been researching the exact same thing - how to take full advantage of the DAC built into the monitors, minimising all the gubbins that comes before it. Here's some of what I've found (most of it from these forums)

How it works
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13095789-volume-control-technologies

Options
https://www.lake-people.de/en/categories/converter-solutions/lake-people-dat-rs-05
https://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/Product Brief-SHD Studio.pdf (as recommended by others here)
https://www.bluesound.com/products/node/ (using the digital out, bypassing the DAC)

My conclusion from all of this is that I'd probably be best off getting the Bluesound. Sure, it means dumping the PI, plus I'd be paying for a DAC that I don't use, but it's a decent price and it ticks all the boxes, including an HDMI e-Arc input for the telly.

Still searching, though. That Lake People product looks good, not least because it seems to take a USB input which would allow the spdif hat to be avoided.