Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

[BingaMoon]

Anyone test out both the KH80 and the KH120? I bought the KH80 which I actually thought sounded slightly clearer than my Revel M16's but couldn't go very loud and sounded kinda boxed in. I bought the 7 inch woofer ASP Klasiks based off recommendations but it didn't sound clear at all. Is the Neumann KH120 worth trying out is it still gonna have basically the same boxed in not very loud sound compared to my Revel's?

 

[q3cpma]

Anyone test out both the KH80 and the KH120? I bought the KH80 which I actually thought sounded slightly clearer than my Revel M16's but couldn't go very loud and sounded kinda boxed in. I bought the 7 inch woofer ASP Klasiks based off recommendations but it didn't sound clear at all. Is the Neumann KH120 worth trying out is it still gonna have basically the same boxed in not very loud sound compared to my Revel's?

Don't know about "boxed", but the KH120A is objectively one of the loudest 5" with JBL's humougous 705p/i.

 

[BingaMoon]

Don't know about "boxed", but the KH120A is objectively one of the loudest 5" with JBL's humougous 705p/i.

Yeah I'm starting to think it's probably not worth testing out the KH120. I can't imagine it sounding that much better than the KH80. I only have 10 days until I'm stuck with the Revel's. Those are the only two studio monitors I tried but the hifi speakers I used that were small all had the same problem of sounding small.

 

[q3cpma]

Yeah I'm starting to think it's probably not worth testing out the KH120. I can't imagine it sounding that much better than the KH80. I only have 10 days until I'm stuck with the Revel's. Those are the only two studio monitors I tried but the hifi speakers I used that were small all had the same problem of sounding small.

Well, I don't really know what you're talking about, so I can't really give you any advice. Maybe you dislike the lack of directivity in the midbass, characteristic of small (so narrow, in absolute value) cabinets.

 

[Pepperjack]

Haven’t compared to the 80 but compared to the kef r5 and aria 926 I am very happy with the 120 in my house. Just to share here is what I did for a stand. Kef gfs-124 picked up with a damaged top from amazon for 50 bucks, then Replaced the top plate with Monoprice Single Monitor Workstream desktop mount, bolted right on and works perfectly for me. Makes a great lrc, only problem I am having is that aidessey xt32 is saying all three are out of phase, confirmed the cable is wired correctly so am still trying to get a clear answer on why that is happening. While I didn’t do an a/b comparison I definitely do not feel anything is lacking vs the r5 though, or the others speakers I had chosen the r5 over already. Personally I am a fan of returning if not certain. Guitar center currently has a 180 day return window so...no real risk of there is a store nearby (easier to avoid any potential fee vs shipping back)

 

[infinitesymphony]

Yeah I'm starting to think it's probably not worth testing out the KH120. I can't imagine it sounding that much better than the KH80. I only have 10 days until I'm stuck with the Revel's. Those are the only two studio monitors I tried but the hifi speakers I used that were small all had the same problem of sounding small.

KH120s should have sound signature similar to KH80s while going lower (KH120 -5dB @ 50Hz; KH80 -10dB @ 50Hz) and louder (see this post), but both must be used with a subwoofer for full range. The Revel M16 should be as well, but because it has a bass bump it may be more satisfying in a scenario without a sub.

 

[thewas]

but both must be used with a subwoofer for full range.

That depends on the listening distance and required max level as well at the placement and room acoustics, for example my desktop KH 120 play linearly at the listeners position without EQ down to approx 33 Hz thanks to the placement and lowest room mode (MM measurement)

so in this case I don't really miss a subwoofer for upmost music.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Yeah I'm starting to think it's probably not worth testing out the KH120. I can't imagine it sounding that much better than the KH80. I only have 10 days until I'm stuck with the Revel's. Those are the only two studio monitors I tried but the hifi speakers I used that were small all had the same problem of sounding small.

For the record, what is your listening distance with these (and possibly room size)? I can't shake the feeling that it's at least 8-10 feet, possibly more. I'd say 2 m (~7') is about the upper limit for a 5" like the KH120, and preferably 0.75 m - 1.5 m (2.5' to 5'), even 0.5 m is feasible.

In any case KH120 level handling should still be a lot better than for the KH80, something like 10 dB in the bass. The 5" woofer performs very well, the 4" is OK for what it is but not quite at the same level.

 

[Pepperjack]

I’m in a 9ft equilateral and it’s not a problem for me, but perhaps my experience is too low to appreciate it. However volume is certainly not a problem.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I’m in a 9ft equilateral and it’s not a problem for me, but perhaps my experience is too low to appreciate it. However volume is certainly not a problem.

The KH120s do have some impressive level handling for their size, that's for sure. In terms of 50-100 Hz average bass level handling, they seem to beat out (or at least be no worse than) the much less expensive 8" Mackie MR824s (which, mind you, do go deeper).

At 9', results would be increasing dependent on the qualities of your room. If untreated, diffuse sound is likely to be more dominant than what is considered desirable. Things still wouldn't sound bad, just more mushy, less defined than they could be.

 

[BingaMoon]

For the record, what is your listening distance with these (and possibly room size)? I can't shake the feeling that it's at least 8-10 feet, possibly more. I'd say 2 m (~7') is about the upper limit for a 5" like the KH120, and preferably 0.75 m - 1.5 m (2.5' to 5'), even 0.5 m is feasible.

In any case KH120 level handling should still be a lot better than for the KH80, something like 10 dB in the bass. The 5" woofer performs very well, the 4" is OK for what it is but not quite at the same level.

I'm in kissing distance. They are as close to me as possible.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I'm in kissing distance. They are as close to me as possible.

Huh. That's slightly puzzling then. You're not usually blasting dubstep or other bass-heavy music at high volumes, are you? And by "they don't go very loud" you did mean that they're starting to sound distinctively unhappy, right?

If you look at the level handling and distortion graphs you'll see that the KH80s' woofer is clearly struggling towards the low end, and the large amount of H2 may indicate that the driver just isn't as well-optimized. At 90 dB, distortion only drops below the 1% mark above 200 Hz, while the KH120s manage to push this below 80 Hz. The 3% mark is reached at a little above 100 Hz, while the KH120s are pushing this to 60 Hz. At 200 Hz and 1%, we're looking at about 87 dB vs. 100 dB. Not a small difference overall.

Just for the record, how have you connected the KH80s? The KH120s at least have a bit of a reputation for liking to sound harsh if you're not using a proper balanced connection - I suspect the integrated SMPS may have something to do with this.

 

[sfdoddsy]

The Neumann's will have a notably narrower dispersion than the Revels, as will most studio monitors. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, it is a design choice.

Something like a KEF LS50 will probably split the difference. The coincident driver also suits your listening distance.

But all these small speakers will sound like small speakers due to bass limitations. A lot of the spaciousness in music is due to subtle bass cues.

Have you tried adding a sub?

 

[temps]

Anyone test out both the KH80 and the KH120? I bought the KH80 which I actually thought sounded slightly clearer than my Revel M16's but couldn't go very loud and sounded kinda boxed in. I bought the 7 inch woofer ASP Klasiks based off recommendations but it didn't sound clear at all. Is the Neumann KH120 worth trying out is it still gonna have basically the same boxed in not very loud sound compared to my Revel's?

I tested the 80 and 120 and didn't like the bass performance of either one. @AnalogSteph mentioned the distortion levels, which aren't bad until you get close to the port tuning then they go flying up. At 90dB it's close to 10%, and based on my experience I think it's significantly higher than that with program material. If you're mixing at high levels you're looking at huge, audible, obscuring distortion in the bass.

Try and track down Dynaudio LYD-7s. They're a 7" monitor but they're cheaper than the 5" KH 120. No issues with volume, bass extension, anything here. Super impressed, BUT, I do have some significant noise issues. I'm getting a new circuit installed to fix that because I like the monitors too much to get rid of em.

 

[Pepperjack]

I tested the 80 and 120 and didn't like the bass performance of either one. @AnalogSteph mentioned the distortion levels, which aren't bad until you get close to the port tuning then they go flying up. At 90dB it's close to 10%, and based on my experience I think it's significantly higher than that with program material. If you're mixing at high levels you're looking at huge, audible, obscuring distortion in the bass.

Try and track down Dynaudio LYD-7s. They're a 7" monitor but they're cheaper than the 5" KH 120. No issues with volume, bass extension, anything here. Super impressed, BUT, I do have some significant noise issues. I'm getting a new circuit installed to fix that because I like the monitors too much to get rid of em.

You are running them with xlr to rca cables?

 

[Chromatischism]

Not scientific but clearly audible differences, I just came across this comparison:

 

[temps]

You are running them with xlr to rca cables?

Nope, everything's balanced cabling. Lifting pin 1 on the XLRs to the monitors reduced the noise level by a ton, but it's still there.

I finally managed to isolate the noise to a certain part of my computer motherboard so I might try and get it replaced with a different one to solve the issue. Asus Z390 Prime with an Intel 9900K. Edit: but the issue exists with two separate PCs so new circuit it is. My laptop will run it noise free until I plug it in, then there's tons of noise. My previous Adam A5s worked in this setup for years with zero issues.

 

[hmt]

I tested the 80 and 120 and didn't like the bass performance of either one. @AnalogSteph mentioned the distortion levels, which aren't bad until you get close to the port tuning then they go flying up. At 90dB it's close to 10%, and based on my experience I think it's significantly higher than that with program material. If you're mixing at high levels you're looking at huge, audible, obscuring distortion in the bass.

Try and track down Dynaudio LYD-7s. They're a 7" monitor but they're cheaper than the 5" KH 120. No issues with volume, bass extension, anything here. Super impressed, BUT, I do have some significant noise issues. I'm getting a new circuit installed to fix that because I like the monitors too much to get rid of em.

The LYD 7 do not have a waveguide and a 7" woofer paired with a 2.5" dome tweeter that is crossed very high. Whey will have a worse directivity (more uneven) than the KH120.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Nope, everything's balanced cabling. Lifting pin 1 on the XLRs to the monitors reduced the noise level by a ton, but it's still there.

I finally managed to isolate the noise to a certain part of my computer motherboard so I might try and get it replaced with a different one to solve the issue. Asus Z390 Prime with an Intel 9900K. Edit: but the issue exists with two separate PCs so new circuit it is. My laptop will run it noise free until I plug it in, then there's tons of noise. My previous Adam A5s worked in this setup for years with zero issues.

So, what kind of audio interface are you using?

This honestly sounds to me like you have an unbalanced output there, and while the A5s may have been built to mitigate ground loops in such a scenario (I mean, the ADAM T*V are some of the few monitors with a 2-pin IEC power connector, so they are no doubt aware of these issues), you are now seeing one in all its glory.

The only other thing it could be would be a Pin 1 Problem, but I sincerely doubt that the good folks at Neumann / Sennheiser would be silly / cheap enough to not follow AES48-2005 guidelines in a recent design (*cough* Rokit RP5/RP6 G3 *cough*).

 

[temps]

The LYD 7 do not have a waveguide and a 7" woofer paired with a 2.5" dome tweeter that is crossed very high. Whey will have a worse directivity (more uneven) than the KH120.

Yes, they use a different type of voice coil. It'd be stupid to use a crossover that high with a typical driver. The very high crossover is to move all crossover distortion out of the region where your ears are most sensitive to it. It works.

I had discounted drivers without waveguides as well, however, the LYD has a gigantic advantage in its price class by having a 7" woofer where everyone else only has 5" (or less). The directivity isn't as bad as you'd think either. Charts are available on Dynaudio's website.

So, what kind of audio interface are you using?

This honestly sounds to me like you have an unbalanced output there, and while the A5s may have been built to mitigate ground loops in such a scenario (I mean, the ADAM T*V are some of the few monitors with a 2-pin IEC power connector, so they are no doubt aware of these issues), you are now seeing one in all its glory.

The only other thing it could be would be a Pin 1 Problem, but I sincerely doubt that the good folks at Neumann / Sennheiser would be silly / cheap enough to not follow AES48-2005 guidelines in a recent design (*cough* Rokit RP5/RP6 G3 *cough*).

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