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Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

F1308

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#63
Lots of fun...
I used to listen a Denon AVR-Mythos ST system in a huge 80 m2 room with a 9 m tall ceiling and along some 15 years always thought the sound changed from winter [18C] to summer [28C]...Bass was somewhat different...
At times I thought I was going too far dealing with music.
Now I know I was fully right.
Yes, the only time I was wrong was that very time I thought I was wrong...!!!!
 

tomtoo

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#64
It's realy a outstanding archivment what @Amir, @neumann and @klippel did.
This little speakers are a true neutral reference point. And that with a comprehensible quality standart. And proofen in front of us all. Thats somehow outstanding. And i hope @neumann will profit from it.
 

Fidji

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#65
Those 2 cases (denongate and neumanngate) showed 2 really important thing - ASR is relevant, as manufacturers do care about results on this side and second, even more important, is ASR willingness to question itself and improve.
Great respect to Amir.

p.s. I have 7.2 HT setup, based on Neumanns - 420/310/870. I think for smaller rooms 310/120/750 could work too. 80’s are too small, definitely.
 

napilopez

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#66
Fantastic collaboration, gentlemen! That is a fascinating observation. Maybe others did, but I had no idea cold temperatures affected woofers so much.
Yep, same. I'd certainly heard about temperatures affecting woofers before, and I think that probably makes intuitive sense to most of us, but it was an issue of scale. I'd pretty much relegated temperature differences to the same mental space where I file the effects of burn-in on a woofer -- relevant only for measuring drivers outside a cabinet and with minimal effect on the primary audible factor of frequency response

Very clearly, that was a false equivalence!
 

napilopez

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#68
"the preference score is only valid when used within the exp comfort range of the 'weaker' speaker. It's up to you to figure that out, but it's normally pretty obvious." Not alway. I think when we get to things like the Genelec 8351 vs the Kef R3 vs a Revel F228be something like the respective large signal capability of each will not be obvious, and a spinorama certainly won't tell us much about that either.
True. I guess I always think of people should purchase a bit beyond their needs, in the same way it doesn't hurt to have too much power on an amp. But as Amir has also shown in other tests here, cutting off the very lowest frequencies of a small speaker can have a major effect on the clarity of the other frequencies - I think you might be surprised at just how much better a small pair speakers can get with a sub or two.

But certainly, without subs, you have to be careful comparing against larger speakers.
 

Juhazi

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#69
Air temp and density are not as meaningful as the temp of the DUT and microphone capsule (surround and spider Young's modulus). In Guy's test the DUT was in fridge before measurements, which were obviously done in same room temp.

This series of tests shows how important small details in measurements are - DUT/room temperature, zero-axis alignment, mic cage. These must be standardized or ar least specified for each published test even with this Klippel NFS!

I'm still wondering how valid are NFS results for floorstanders with multiple bass drivers...
 

echopraxia

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#70
I would like to hear from anyone who uses these (or the next two models up size-wise) for home listening; HOW do they sound to your ears (which I am more than willing to recognize, in a sincerely proffered act of obeisance, fall far short of Klippel or any other empirically derived measuring devices)...? In particular for recordings of non-amplified acoustic events first conceived preternaturally in the minds of Beethoven and like.
I don’t have the KH80s but I can attest that the KH120s and KH310s sound amazing. I still think the KH120s are the best speakers for the price I have ever heard. Both are also extremely impressive in terms of SPL capability. When you hear the KH120s playing loudly in a small to medium room, it’s surprising when you realize how small the speakers are for such a big sound (amazing bass for their size). Same with the KH310s: Their bass power and extension is amazing, easily beating many tower speakers in a similar price range.

I think someone else here has the KH410s. I’ve not seen a single unhappy Neumann owner.
 
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MZKM

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#74
Going by Olive's metric, using a standard deviation of 0.8(from the study), and using maths(thanks @edechamps for helping me to understand), I would say that there is a 97.44(repeating of course)% chance that amir will prefer the Neumann.
The formulas are for far-field listening, not near-field (in which the listening window and dispersion likely play a much larger role).
 

MZKM

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#76
Probably highlights that the preference ratings don't take into consideration the power handling/dynamic range of speakers, which certainly makes them incomplete as a predictive model.
Yep. Amir doesn’t have the add-on package to test max SPL (and even if he did I bet he would be wary of doing so). For passive speakers though, I have the sensitivity added, which is pretty useful.
 

thewas_

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#78
I don’t have the KH80s but I can attest that the KH120s and KH310s sound amazing. I still think the KH120s are the best speakers for the price I have ever heard. Both are also extremely impressive in terms of SPL capability. When you hear the KH120s playing loudly in a small to medium room, it’s surprising when you realize how small the speakers are for such a big sound (amazing bass for their size). Same with the KH310s: Their bass power and extension is amazing, easily beating many tower speakers in a similar price range.

I think someone else here has the KH410s. I’ve not seen a single unhappy Neumann owner.
I have to agree, since 2 weeks I have a pair of KH120 for my desktop setup where they replaced my trusty old JBL LSR 305 (MKI) and KEF LS50 and they are the first ones that only need room EQ but no corrections above as both my measurements and listening tests show and can go shockingly loud for their tiny size. My experience was the same with a pair KH310 I had gotten for a test some years ago, it was just stunning, same also for the KH420 of a friend of mine.

I hope Neumann don't make a speaker in the price range between the KH120 and KH310 too soon, else I will probably have to buy it at some point :D
I always hoped they would, as it would immediately be the loudspeaker for my classic stereo stetup as KH310 are unfortunately currently too expensive for me and I also don't like so much their horizontal orientation which is optimised for monitoring bridge.
 
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#79
Finally a satisfying solution to this mystery! Thanks to all involved. To Amir, of course, for his great effort, but also to Neumann, who also deserve credit for having invested money and time, even though they were basically right all along. I think that the effort was very worthwhile and that this also showed that at least part of the criticism was justified in essence. It's a big relief that Amir took it seriously in the end, even if I find the sarcasm unnecessary ("riot" etc.). It's probably meant to be funny, whatever...
Interesting that all (most) sides were a little bit right. That's probably why the discussion was so persistent.
 
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