Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

[Matias]

Thanks, I guess I never paid much attention to them before, only the pointy phase plugs I noticed, not the plates.

 

[tifune]

Definitely not.

Even as surrounds/height layer? Seems like we could get pretty close to reference level (assuming small-medoum room) once they're crossed over in a non-LCR use case.

I was really hoping to do something like 310 LR, 120 C/HC, 80s for the remainder. Choosing speakers for home theater is so confusing - part of me thinks you want more output on height layer because they're further away, but nobody seems to do that so I'm obviously wrong.

 

[Sancus]

Even as surrounds/height layer? Seems like we could get pretty close to reference level (assuming small-medoum room) once they're crossed over in a non-LCR use case.

I was really hoping to do something like 310 LR, 120 C/HC, 80s for the remainder. Choosing speakers for home theater is so confusing - part of me thinks you want more output on height layer because they're further away, but nobody seems to do that so I'm obviously wrong.

Full reference level requires the ability to play 115dB SPL from 20-120hz which is generally tougher to accomplish than the surround/height levels.

I use KH80s as heights and used them as surrounds for a while. They're fine as long as the room isn't that big and they're not too far away(2-3m max, IMO). Crossed at 100hz, they'll play about 96-97dB @ 2m in a small room. That's plenty loud for -5 to -10dB on the AVR volume setting. It's not loud enough for 0dB, but if you have the subs to legitimately play 0dB you should probably be considering larger speakers. And anyway, 0dB is often too loud in a small/medium room.

I personally find it hard to justify spending a lot on heights(most people would probably consider $500/channel too much already) because >99% of the time they're just playing ambience, reflections, and environmental sounds. In a perfect world though, yes, you should use KH420s for LCR and 310s for everything else.

 

[Matias]

So this is UMIK-1 MMM around the listening position at my office, speaker set to flat, chair out of the way.

RTA was set to 1/48 octave, FFT length 64k, Averages Forever (but I stopped around 30 samples), Window Hann, Max Overlap 50%. I don't have a clue what those mean but apparently they are the right settings.

Behold, >1 kHz is flatish now. Strange to see the elevation around 13 kHz. Any ideas why?

REW file here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UVdOIxqgi6feFPcGbLpVZ0W5ZyUobdBq/view?usp=sharing

Left speaker

Right speaker

Using an 176 kHz convolution export of those filters now.

 

[Robbo99999]

So this is MMM around the listening position at my office, speaker set to flat, chair out of the way.

View attachment 124473

RTA was set to 1/48 octave, FFT length 64k, Averages Forever (but I stopped around 30 samples), Window Hann, Max Overlap 50%. I don't have a clue what those mean but apparently they are the right settings.

Behold, >1 kHz is flatish now. Strange to see the elevation around 13 kHz. Any ideas why?

REW file here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UVdOIxqgi6feFPcGbLpVZ0W5ZyUobdBq/view?usp=sharing

Left speaker
View attachment 124469

Right speaker
View attachment 124470

Using an 176 kHz convolution export of those filters now.

I think you're better off just EQ'ing the area below 500Hz that is influenced by the room, if you're gonna be doing it based off in-room measurements. Then for everything above 500Hz, if you're gonna EQ that area, then EQ that to Anechoic Measurements done by Amir in the review (the spinorama). But the speaker is so flat & consistent in Amir's spinorama that you don't really need to EQ it above 500Hz.....above 10kHz it deviates a bit from flat so maybe it could benefit by a bit of Anechoic EQ above 10kHz, otherwise I'd just leave it with EQ below 500Hz based on your measurements and leave the rest of the frequency range alone.

 

[jhaider]

Even as surrounds/height layer? Seems like we could get pretty close to reference level (assuming small-medoum room) once they're crossed over in a non-LCR use case.

I was really hoping to do something like 310 LR, 120 C/HC, 80s for the remainder. Choosing speakers for home theater is so confusing - part of me thinks you want more output on height layer because they're further away, but nobody seems to do that so I'm obviously wrong.

Is “reference level” actually important, or just something people say on the internet?

FWIW, we use speakers I expect are capable of less output than KH 80 DSP - Tannoy Revolution XT Mini - for heights, and while admittedly we’re more likely to play Abbey Road or Automatic for the People in Atmos (or upmix 2 channel in Auro) than some comic book based movie, I’ve yet to hear overload from the heights.

However, if you’re think KH 310 for L/R, why not use one for center as well?

 

[LTig]

However, if you’re think KH 310 for L/R, why not use one for center as well?

This. All recommendations I've seen so far by any serious studio monitor maker are to use a center speaker with the same capabilities as the L/R front speakers.

 

[tifune]

This. All recommendations I've seen so far by any serious studio monitor maker are to use a center speaker with the same capabilities as the L/R front speakers.

Is “reference level” actually important, or just something people say on the internet?

However, if you’re think KH 310 for L/R, why not use one for center as well?

Great Q's - I don't know the answers. "Reference level" simply seems to be a common baseline, like the Harman curve, that I can use as a goal to better understand the entire HT design paradigm. My targeted use case is 2ch upmix for myself, movies for the rest of the fam.

I'm really confused as to how a surround system should be budgeted. Meaning, let's say my limit is 10k for speakers - is that 6k for LCR, 2k for surround, and then 2k for heights? I can't seem to find a good guide as to the importance of each speaker other than "LCR are most important, but all speakers should be from same brand or have similar 'tonality'".

So, in my case I'm just using what I have on hand to see if I even care enough to invest more into it. Kef R3 LR, KH310 center, KH120 surround, and then a bunch of (really) old matching Paradigm Titans for height layer. But, I also have a pair of LS50 Meta - would I be better served by using one of those as C because they're "closer in tonality" to R3? Kef published specs show the Meta to basically be same speaker as R2C/R3, but lower output. My Denon 6700 arrives today, so I guess I'll find out.

If I do really enjoy it, I'll probably go all-in on either Kef or Neumann (I suspect Kef due to WAF) but then what? Will there really be appreciable return on R11 front, R7 FW, R5 floor surround, R3 height? Even with my large room (24x24x16') it's hard to imagine the answer is "yes" compared to cheaper height-layer LSX/Q-series options and/or shifting budget toward more room treatment unless my goal is MaxHell levels.

Sorry to take the thread off topic, I just remembered the KH80 have great vertical dispersion so was revisiting it with the idea of height layer in mind when I saw Amir's very specific reply that, no, they would not be great HT options.

 

[usern]

You probably want symmetrical driver layout speaker for center channel instead of Neumann KH 310. KH 310 left and right channel speakers are seperate models.

 

[tifune]

You probably want symmetrical driver layout speaker for center channel instead of Neumann KH 310. KH 310 left and right channel speakers are seperate models.

Aesthetics aside, somewhere in Neumann's mess of a KB there is 1-2 paragraphs showing how to use KH310 as center. Simply move it a few inches L or R, depending on which you're using, to line up the tweeter/mid axis. In my case it works because there are seats on the right if my room, but a fireplace on the left. So the ~10 degrees of directivity I lose on the left side is a non-issue.

 

[richard12511]

Is “reference level” actually important, or just something people say on the internet?

FWIW, we use speakers I expect are capable of less output than KH 80 DSP - Tannoy Revolution XT Mini - for heights, and while admittedly we’re more likely to play Abbey Road or Automatic for the People in Atmos (or upmix 2 channel in Auro) than some comic book based movie, I’ve yet to hear overload from the heights.

However, if you’re think KH 310 for L/R, why not use one for center as well?

One thing I like about active speakers like this for heights is that they tell you when they're overloaded, and also protect themselves. I'm using 8030c for heights, and they're ~8ft further away from the listening position than the 8351b mains. I've yet to see the red lights on the 8030c.

 

[tifune]

One thing I like about active speakers like this for heights is that they tell you when they're overloaded, and also protect themselves. I'm using 8030c for heights, and they're ~8ft further away from the listening position than the 8351b mains. I've yet to see the red lights on the 8030c.

This is EXACTLY what I had in mind - can you go into a little more detail? How many speakers, etc? If I really enjoy my initial testing, my end goal is 7.2.4 (I think; attached). I'll be using FW instead of SB as SB would block foot traffic.

 

[usern]

Aesthetics aside, somewhere in Neumann's mess of a KB there is 1-2 paragraphs showing how to use KH310 as center.

Does the manual detail this configuration for just one listening position?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Does the manual detail this configuration for just one listening position?

Page 9. https://de-de.neumann.com/product_files/9389/download
(took me 8-10 seconds to find)

 

[tifune]

Page 9. https://de-de.neumann.com/product_files/9389/download
(took me 8-10 seconds to find)

Hah! Of course it would be in the instruction manual, the last place anyone would look.

That's actually not the example I was thinking of - I looked again and couldn't find it, but it included a photo of a LCR setup using 310's in a vertical orientation in a production van. Doesn't matter though, your find is much better

 

[jhaider]

Great Q's - I don't know the answers. "Reference level" simply seems to be a common baseline, like the Harman curve, that I can use as a goal to better understand the entire HT design paradigm. My targeted use case is 2ch upmix for myself, movies for the rest of the fam.

I ask because "cinema reference" is very very loud. I know we never listen to movies or TV at such levels.

I can't seem to find a good guide as to the importance of each speaker other than "LCR are most important, but all speakers should be from same brand or have similar 'tonality'".

I think a better guide is simply "all should be good speakers - flattish and smooth on axis response, smooth off axis response, and the front speakers are by far the most important." IMO the effects speakers (side, rear, height) should have wide dispersion to avoid localization. Each "group" of speakers in my system is very different from one another in terms of drivers and such:
-Mains use a ring radiator compression driver on a waveguide
-Sides use a coaxial midrange/tweeter with ceramic tweeter and no phase plug
-Rears use a 2" aluminum dome midrange and .75" aluminum dome tweeter
-Heights use a coaxial 4" driver with low-compression ring radiator tweeter and phase plug of different design from the mains.

So, in my case I'm just using what I have on hand to see if I even care enough to invest more into it.

Smart, but also remember that more investment may not lead to better results. The low hanging fruit is making sure there's nothing irritating (such as an effects speaker that always lets you know where it is) and then LCR. After that returns are diminishing to nonexistent.

Kef R3 LR, KH310 center, KH120 surround, and then a bunch of (really) old matching Paradigm Titans for height layer.

I would also be tempted to try KH120 L/R and KH310C. I would not mic KH310 and KEF, personally.

But, I also have a pair of LS50 Meta - would I be better served by using one of those as C because they're "closer in tonality" to R3? Kef published specs show the Meta to basically be same speaker as R2C/R3, but lower output.

I guess. A third R3 would obviously be better. Or maybe KEF's horizontal center.

My Denon 6700 arrives today, so I guess I'll find out.

If I do really enjoy it, I'll probably go all-in on either Kef or Neumann (I suspect Kef due to WAF) but then what?

Depending on distance to speakers wider-dispersion sides/rears may be advisable. But if you don't immediately pin sounds to that speaker when listening to content you'll be fine IMO.

Will there really be appreciable return on R11 front, R7 FW, R5 floor surround, R3 height? Even with my large room (24x24x16') it's hard to imagine the answer is "yes" compared to cheaper height-layer LSX/Q-series options and/or shifting budget toward more room treatment unless my goal is MaxHell levels.

R3s as heights just sounds ridiculous to me. LS50 might be a good option if not too expensive.

 

[astcal]

Now the Neumann KH80 DSP is a true reference speaker. You can even measure temperatur with it.

almost -- it will be a true reference speaker when it can make coffee. Currently they are sitting on my desk and staring at my coffee only.

 

[BDE]

In below attached zip-folder there's a bunch of txt-files for Amir's analyze of KH 80 sample 3 including the PIR curve, rename extension to frd if software dont like txt-files ..

View attachment 106109

How do you get the hor. and vert. measurements quick into Vituix? The format we get from the spin can not be handled by Vituix, so you copy it manually into diferent files for each angle? Or is there a faster/ automated way?

BTW: Do you like to share the *.vxp?

 

[BYRTT]

How do you get the hor. and vert. measurements quick into Vituix? The format we get from the spin can not be handled by Vituix, so you copy it manually into diferent files for each angle? Or is there a faster/ automated way?

BTW: Do you like to share the *.vxp?

Used MS Excel to read Amir's file format in a manual way and then have recorded the operation as a macro so as operation then is automated and in two runs (one for horizontals and one for verticals) spit out 72 txt-files that makes Vituix happy : ) Have shared a five point animated guide plus the Excel file at this ASR link (LINK: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-vituixcad-using-amirs-shared-spindata.13136/).

That guide should get you going so no reason to share Vituix project file, have fun...

 

[tifune]

-Mains use a ring radiator compression driver on a waveguide
-Sides use a coaxial midrange/tweeter with ceramic tweeter and no phase plug
-Rears use a 2" aluminum dome midrange and .75" aluminum dome tweeter
-Heights use a coaxial 4" driver with low-compression ring radiator tweeter and phase plug of different design from the mains.

Now that I've had a bit of time to experiment with Auro, etc, curious which speakers you're describing here to correlate with what I'm experiencing? I swear you had posted a video at some point but I can't find it in your history