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Neumann KH420 vs Revel PerformaBe F228be or F328be

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echopraxia

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Dedicated room or living room?
That’s hard to answer since I would want it to work for both, and I don’t see why it can’t unless there’s something I’m missing. The ideal is something with plenty of SPL and dynamics capability, and more of a wider spatial character. I think the F328 (and Salon2) fits this criteria well, and possibly also the D&D 8C and maybe Kii Three.
 

aac

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Kh420 can be flush mounted if room is purpose built.
Salon shape will make it harder.
 

Shazb0t

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Below I've plotted the Listening Window, 60 degree measurement, and a "60-degrees directivity index" for each speaker. (Ignore the tall spikes at the ends of the graph, that's a small glitch)

index.php

This is assuming beam width is what explains this perception, but this hypothesis certainly does seem to be the most likely one. For example, another speaker whose soundstage characteristics I really love is the Ascend Sierra RAAL Towers, which also have very wide mids and treble (even though they have a “directivity mismatch” in the upper bass / lower mids).
@napilopez out of curiousity would you be able to easily add the Ascend Sierra Horizon data from the ASR spin to this graph for a RAAL 70-20 wide directivity comparison? I'm very interested in this theory.
 
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echopraxia

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@napilopez out of curiousity would you be able to easily add the Ascend Sierra Horizon data from the ASR spin to this graph for a RAAL 70-20 wide directivity comparison? I'm very interested in this theory.
I’m not sure if the Horizon beam is comparable with the Towers, for which we don’t have measurements. We do have measurements of the Sierra 2 and of course the Luna/Duo tweeters.
 

Shazb0t

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I’m not sure if the Horizon beam is comparable with the Towers, for which we don’t have measurements. We do have measurements of the Sierra 2 and of course the Luna/Duo tweeters.
What makes you think it wouldn't be? The Horizon has the same driver compliment, cabinet volume, and crossover points as the towers. It could be comparable. The Sierra 2 has a thinner width tweeter which will definitely have different dispersion. Same with the Luna/Duo. Not really comparable.
 
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echopraxia

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What makes you think it wouldn't be?
The tweeter is the same, but it’s in a completely different enclosure that is 3x wider. It also does not sound the same as the towers. I never tested if they sound similar in terms of soundstage, since I only used the Horizon as a center channel in the past.

Anyway it’s pretty easy to see via ASR measurements that the Horizon beam isn’t as exceptionally wide as the 2EX or Luna. We don’t have measurements of the Sierra Towers, so I don’t know what to expect there.

It certainly would be interesting if the Ascend RAAL Towers turned out to be not truly wider than e.g. Revel F206. Because the Ascend soundstage beat the F206 in the blind test I did. If it’s not beam width, then I wonder what it could be. Certainly would be interesting to explore.
 

Shazb0t

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The tweeter is the same, but it’s in a completely different enclosure that is 3x wider.
The cabinet is the same volume. The midrange is in a sealed chamber that is the same size as the towers. It's quite similar.

Anyway it’s pretty easy to see via ASR measurements that the Horizon beam isn’t as exceptionally wide as the 2EX or Luna. We don’t have measurements of the Sierra Towers, so I don’t know what to expect there.
It isn't going to be the same as the 64-10. The tweeter is twice the width. The width of those smaller tweeters is why those speakers have exceptionally wide dispersion in the treble.
 
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That’s hard to answer since I would want it to work for both, and I don’t see why it can’t unless there’s something I’m missing. The ideal is something with plenty of SPL and dynamics capability, and more of a wider spatial character. I think the F328 (and Salon2) fits this criteria well, and possibly also the D&D 8C and maybe Kii Three.

In living room, it's mainly a trade off between clarity and envelopement. You already have the Genelecs, so a speaker with more enveloping soundstage would bring some variety. Applying downward tilt to the frequency response can also help.

In a dedicated room with acoustic treatments, I wouldn't worry about an optimal dispersion pattern. Early reflections can be controlled without too much impact on decay time. My top priority would be how good I can get the bass response in 100-300hz region. Even just a difference in bass driver location can have significant impact.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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That’s hard to answer since I would want it to work for both, and I don’t see why it can’t unless there’s something I’m missing. The ideal is something with plenty of SPL and dynamics capability, and more of a wider spatial character. I think the F328 (and Salon2) fits this criteria well, and possibly also the D&D 8C and maybe Kii Three.
The Dutch&Dutch 8C is SPL limited compared to those other speakers you mentioned. That is its biggest weakness.

That said, I should probably try to set up my 8330A’s as surrounds in the 8351B system (since I already have them), and see how far I can get that way towards a more enveloping soundstage experience. Maybe it will transcend to a new level of amazing, after which I’ll never look back to stereo again :)



That's pretty much how it goes when you turn on the Auro upmixer. Speaking from experience. :p
 
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Just found these SPL measurements of the Neumann KH420 and Genelec 8361A from Sound & Recording, which is a very interesting comparison:

D4A72E93-9DA8-4570-9FE1-0D654B7A35BA.jpeg

D478EC99-3A0F-4633-BECB-9506AF78E99A.jpeg


This is pretty amazing bass performance from the Genelec 8361! It actually appears to push quite a bit louder than the KH420 up to 60hz. However, the KH420 has a bit more power in the 100-200hz range, which is probably more important when combining with a subwoofer. It’s also really amazing also how the KH420 is will do 120db between 400hz-2khz, and is still doing 110db at 10khz. Though the Genelec is still quite capable here, so I’m not sure if you’d ever need to actually sustain more than 100db at these frequencies anyway — though maybe for transient peaks it would be an advantage?

It’s a shame we don’t have similar max SPL measurements for speakers like the Revel F328Be. I’m sure they’re quite capable, but speculation only goes so far.
 

Sancus

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his is pretty amazing bass performance from the Genelec 8361! It actually appears to push quite a bit louder than the KH420 up to 60hz. However, the KH420 has a bit more power in the 100-200hz range, which is probably more important when combining with a subwoofer. It’s also really amazing also how the KH420 is will do 120db between 400hz-2khz, and is still doing 110db at 10khz. Though the Genelec is still quite capable here, so I’m not sure if you’d ever need to actually sustain more than 100db at these frequencies anyway — though maybe for transient peaks it would be an advantage?

This gets really complicated because SPL capability in omnidirectional frequencies is heavily affected by half/quarter space gain. And the 420 controls dispersion a bit lower(but less evenly) than the 8361A. I would consider them equal for all practical purposes, it would be almost impossible to determine which will play louder in practice without very elaborate testing, and even then, SPL differences of less than 3dB are too small considering how little that is perceptually.
 

Pearljam5000

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Would be a tough call between them as they cost the same and are pretty similar sonically (I assume) but..
The 8361A has a few advantages :
Coaxial design and the aluminum cabinet (not sure what the KH420 cabinet is made out of)
And having room correction without having to buy a specific sub.
 

amirm

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It’s a shame we don’t have similar max SPL measurements for speakers like the Revel F328Be.
Prove to me they mean something that I will start to measure. :) I have not found anything better than my ear in detecting SPL limits.
 
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echopraxia

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Prove to me they mean something that I will start to measure. :) I have not found anything better than my ear in detecting SPL limits.
I’m not sure I understand why these measurements are meaningless; however in either case, I would argue that any measurements at the higher SPL levels (beyond 96db) is better than none. But please don’t think I’m expecting you to solve this problem — your reviews are already amazingly helpful.

Just as an audiophile looking around at high quality speaker options, the “dynamics” element is very interesting to me. Kind of like how you described some horn speakers having some “dynamic” ability even beyond the Salon2’s. I’ve heard this as well, from the e.g. JBL SRX835P, although it had other downsides of course. It does seem like this “dynamics” thing is something that nobody really knows how to measure yet (aside from maybe hypotheses about peak SPL levels, or sensitivity, etc.) But I suppose the only way to try to figure it out is to make lots of measurements that might be related, and then try to correlate those to what reliable ears are hearing :)
 

nerdoldnerdith

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It'd be nice to know at least whether speakers can play loud enough to hit cinema reference levels (105dB peaks at the listening position) so we can decide if they are appropriate for home theater.
 

aac

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It'd be nice to know at least whether speakers can play loud enough to hit cinema reference levels (105dB peaks at the listening position) so we can decide if they are appropriate for home theater.
Cinema reference levels in small (relatively) room? It's unbearable, you'd need some of those "earplugs for musicians" things.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Cinema reference levels in small (relatively) room? It's unbearable, you'd need some of those "earplugs for musicians" things.
The THX standard calls for 105dB peaks at a 4m listening position. It'd be nice to know if a speaker has that kind of dynamic ability without having to pay THX for their certification.

Speaking from experience, this isn't too loud IMO. These are transient peaks. Average listening levels are around 85dB.
 

aac

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Does this THX standard specify room volume? I never seen this standard (the paper itself), only seen some third parties repeating that.
 

Sancus

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I’m not sure I understand why these measurements are meaningless; however in either case, I would argue that any measurements at the higher SPL levels (beyond 96db) is better than none. But please don’t think I’m expecting you to solve this problem — your reviews are already amazingly helpful.

It's probably because S&R uses THD(not separate harmonics) which doesn't correlate well with perceived distortion. This has been discussed a lot previously though. There are better metrics, but not with ready made software to calculate them.

I don't agree they're meaningless though, just not very accurate. In most cases 2nd harmonic will be the highest and it's not very bothersome so it probably results in speakers with higher 2nd and lower 3rd+ being underrated for example. But I don't think people really need super precise numbers from these tests, it's just like the pref score in that you just want to know if a speaker is like a 95dB speaker or a 105dB speaker or 115dB. So I do think it's better than nothing to have SOME test that reaches higher SPLs.

I have not found anything better than my ear in detecting SPL limits.

Yes, but we can't take your ear home or to the speaker store, unless you are adding a new Patreon tier :p We don't even know what SPLs you reach in listening tests. And typically speakers give up due to low bass limitations, but this means the 100-500hz output, important for those with subwoofers, often remains untested outside the 96dB distortion sweep.

The THX standard calls for 105dB peaks at a 4m listening position. It'd be nice to know if a speaker has that kind of dynamic ability without having to pay THX for their certification.

This is just one(rather old) standard though which has become somewhat of a home theatre shibboleth, in my opinion. Many people(including me) DO find 85dB avg uncomfortable for long periods(like hours watching a movie) in small rooms. That is why Dolby Atmos guidelines(pg 15), for example, recommend calibrating to 79-82dB depending on room size.
 
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